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The M’s Got Better Today… A Lot Better

Posted by Jason A. Churchill on July 26, 2006

Snelling, Broussard Make M’s True Contenders

Whether you believe Ben Broussard is a great acquisition or not, the combination of moves made by Mariners GM BIll Bavasi today made his club significantly better.

Chris Snelling for Carl Everett? The no-brainer of the decade.

Shin-soo Choo plus C+/B- minor leaguer to be named later for Ben Broussard? Another good trade, and the best move Bill Bavasi has made at the helm in Seattle.

Broussard and Eduardo Perez are a perfect L-R combo at DH and Broussard will play wall ball with the Hit-it-Here Cafe in right field at the Safe.

Snelling = Everett, except that he’s good instead. And he will probably get a shot in CF every once in awhile, just to get his bat in the lineup.

Versus right-handed pitching, the Dunce can throw a lineup out there that rivals any west of Chicago.

Vs. RHP

1. Ichiro, RF

2. Snelling, CF

3. Ibanez, LF

4. Sexson, 1B

5. Broussard, DH

6. Beltre, 3B

7. Johjima, C

8. Betancourt, SS

9. Lopez, 2B

Not that Jones will platoon at all, but on occasion I would not be surprised to see Snelling get the nod in center, since Ichiro apparently isn’t going to slide over — EVER.

Snelling can hit second, sixth, seventh…

Vs. LHP

1. Ichiro, RF

2. Beltre, 3B

3. Ibanez, LF

4. Sexson, 1B

5. Perez, DH

6. Johjima, C

7. Lopez, 2B

8. Betancourt, SS

9. Jones, CF

I’d bat Sexson third against LHP, but since the Dunce will not, it’s a useless thought these days. I really like the idea of Jones batting ninth in front of Ichiro – it seemed to help Betancourt somewhat.

The lineup possibilities are endless. Snelling can handle lefthanders, too, and can spell Raul Ibanez against those tough southpaws.
What Bavasi did today was more than just make the big club better, which is the most important thing, of course. He also cleared the organization of a player that did not have a place in this franchise’s future. Now, the Tacoma outfield can welcome Wladimir Balentien or Mike Wilson, both who are tearing up the Texas League.

I’d call Wilson, but would LOVE to see Wlad hit in the PCL. Can’t lose either way, there.

Broussard is the best left-handed power-hitter the M’s have had since Ken Griffey Junior was traded more than six years ago, and he and Perez will both be back in 2007.

Anyone like this deal as much as I do?

Why?

Why not?

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154 Responses to “The M’s Got Better Today… A Lot Better”

  1. Tim F said

    Broussard is the best power the M’s have had since Griffey was traded? I think I need some clarification on that comment.

  2. Obviously you only expect Snelling to play against occaissional righties, not all righties. Jones is still the player there in what percent of righty matches? 60% sound right?

    In that case I would go

    Ichiro RF
    Lopez 2B
    Ibanez LF
    Sexson 1B
    Broussard DH
    Johjima C
    Beltre 3B
    YuBet SS
    Jones CF

    I’d move your proposed Snelling v. righties a bit too

    Ichiro RF
    Beltre 3B
    Ibanez LF
    Sexson 1B
    Brouss DH
    Jedi CF
    Kenji C
    YuBet SS
    Lopez 2B

    I like the proposed lineup v lefties, though I would hope that Snelling gets occaissional time there too.

    Playing the Jedi in Centerfield does make some sense too. He has some experience there. Will Carroll stated on Locked on Sports about two months ago it was a great way to reduce chances of injury. AND it gives him a spot in the lineup in more situations.

  3. Dave Cairns said

    Hi Jason

    Between me emailing you (Thursday morning Sydney time) and you uploading this article you have said 80 % of the contents in my email.

    Great minds think alike …

    For everyone else, I have cut out some of the stuff I said in my email to Jason that he has already mentioned above.

    As some of you may be aware Chris Snelling (Australian outfielder) has been recalled to the Seattle Mariners from AAA Tacoma.

    http://seattle.mariners.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060726&content_id=1576384&vkey=news_sea&fext=.jsp&c_id=sea

    This will come as great news to the Australian baseball community who have followed Chris’ injury recovery on numerous occasions while being very aware of the incredible talent Chris has to bring to Major League baseball.

    I know there will be a great deal of interest in how Chris goes in Seattle from the loyal baseball community in Australia.

    Thanks
    Dave

  4. ACabGone said

    I was excited when Perez came to us but I didn’t see him play much even when the opportunity presented itself due to a manager who is unimaginative as any in baseball, so my excitement went by the way side. I can only hope that Grover makes better use of Snelling/Broussard and until he does that I will be optimistic but guardedly so.

  5. Tim,

    Do you have anything to add to the conversation other than a typo complaint?

    Doesn’t appear so.

  6. DIQ said

    Love the deal.

    Someone needs to wake Hargrove up and assist him in putting his line-ups together.

    Here’s to the stretch run.

    CHEERS!

  7. Matthew said

    love that lineup vs RHP, but, wow, Lopez 9th? Plus you have 4 lefties in the first 5 spots then none 6-9.

    Ichiro, Lopez, Ibanez, Sexson, Broussard, Johjima, Snelling, Beltre, Betancourt

    or something to that effect is what I’d rather see.

  8. The alternating L-R thing is ridiculously overrated.

    Put yer best hitters at the top and yer worst at eight. Period.

    Lopez is sucking ass of late. ZERO extra-base hits since June 27. He’s not the best option at the two-hole versus lefties OR righties.

  9. The M’s aren’t done yet, either.

  10. ACabGone said

    “The M’s aren’t done yet, either.”

    Any insight into what they might do Jason?

  11. Arm.

  12. Oly Rainiers Fan said

    I said on the other thread, the Hargrove interview was that Snelling wouldn’t be breaking into the outfield. Which, if that’s really what Hargrove is going to do, tanks your proposed lineups and lets Snelling sit and rot on the bench.

    And if he does do as you say, platoon Snelling with Jones, what does that do to Jones’ development?

    I’m not canning the deal. I hope Choo gets a legit shot with Cleveland and told him so today after the game. I’m happy for him, and if the ptbnl really is only a c+/b- minor leaguer (though komo and kjr commentary both say it’s probably somebody at or near major league level instead) – it was a helluva deal.

    my concern is a logjam at DH, and Hargrove’s track record of unimaginative lineups.

    i was hearing beltre rumors, with an arm coming back. wouldn’t mind seeing that, but if so, who the heck would play 3b? that would almost certainly send snelling back down, in favor of keeping dobbs up to platoon with bloomquist. but that was just a rumor.

  13. Tim F said

    Jason,

    I wasn’t complaining about a “typo.”

    I legitimately didn’t know what you meant. I didn’t quite expect you to attack me in such a way.

    Sorry for commenting.

  14. Learn how to actually ask “What do you mean” then, Tim.

    Otherwise, you come off as a nit-picking troll.

  15. Willmore said

    “I think I need some clarification on that comment.”

    I think that qualifies as a “What do you mean?”

    I think you jumped the gun a bit there, Jason.

    Anyway, Sir Churchill, what’s are the chances of Sexson being the man exchanged for pitching ? Would the Giants be willing to part with Schmidt (We would offer Sexson + prospects) ? What about someone younger with years left ?

  16. DIQ said

    When you say arm are you referring to bullpen help or someone for the rotation?

    It seems as we get further in the season, Cruceta’s stock and chances of replacing Pineiro are slim.

    If we’re really upgrading and trimming fat, I say the next move is to demote Pineiro to bullpen duty or DFA him.

    Baek or Cruceta are guys I truly see doing better then Pineiro and he could prove valuable being a long relief guy, not to mention the extra velocity on his FB coming out the pen.

  17. Goose said

    Well at least they finally took Jose out of the 3 hole.

    Seems the Beltre-Jose switch is gonna stay.

    And Dobbs at DH tonight.

    DOH!

  18. Willmore said

    Wait … Dobbs at DH ? If Snelling is with the club, Hargrove should be lynched.

  19. ACabGone said

    This Dobbs at DH thing just proves Mr.Hargrove is just an idiot who would forego a better team to have his word. Infuriating……

  20. Tim F said

    If I wanted to be a “nit-picking troll” I’d have listed every player that the M’s have had over the last 6 seasons with more power than Broussard.

    I said that I needed clarification on the comment figuring that maybe you knew something that I didn’t. I’m not sure what it was that I did to offend you, but whatever it was, I’m sorry. I guess.

  21. drrew said

    How much better is Broussard than Snelling?

    I don’t dislike this deal, I’m just concerned that you’ve now essentially told Chris Snelling he has no future with this club.

    Broussard is your left handed DH under control for a few years.
    Jones is your future at CF.
    I’m assuming Ichiro isn’t going anywhere in RF.
    Ibanez will still be around for the next two to three years playing LF and/or DH.

    Couldn’t they have simply inserted Snelling as the DH vs. RHP or will we see a huge difference between what Broussard will do and what Snelling could have done.

  22. WAB said

    Heh, Hargrove should be lynched anyways Willmore.

    Jason, I assume the “arm” you speak of will replace Joel. If so, chalk up another great move for Mr. Bavasi.

    And BTW, how sure are you that Snelling doesn’t get sent right back down to AAA once Broussard joins the team? Maybe I’m missing something, but that’s the move that many seem to think will be made.

    Thanks in advance…

  23. Hopefully, yeah, WAB.

    I think It’s just as possible that the club stays with Pineiro and gets another relief arm.

    It’s also VERY possible that Kahn or O’Flaherty gets the call and they send out Woods.

    Unfortunately, unless he goes in a trade, Mateo is here to stay.

    Mike Wilson is going to be the first choice to replace Choo in Tacoma.

    Dave Cameron mentioned he heard Dobbs is the likely option down to take the place of Snelling on the AAA roster, so something else has tobe in the works, too.

    Having Dobbs and Snelling on the 25-man really doesn’t make sense since Snelling is only going to start about 3 days a week, so that adds up.

  24. WAB said

    All righty, thanks.

  25. Jason, hope you are going to be on softy’s show tomorrow!

  26. SethGrandpa said

    Jason, could you give any info about who the “Arm” you hinted at above might belong to?

  27. Michael S. said

    I think it’s a great trade (broussard). I think they will DL Rafel and they will trade Joel for some minor leaguers. A or AA guys HOPEFULLY. What time is the trade deadline? 12 noon pacific or later on monday.

    I love this time of year it’s almost like march madness

  28. johnb said

    “Broussard is the best left-handed power-hitter the M’s have had since Ken Griffey Junior was traded more than six years ago, and he and Perez will both be back in 2007”

    Interesting.

    I love this part of the season.

  29. Edman said

    Yeah, putting Dobbs in there…..what a foolish thing to do.

  30. ivan said

    Think ahead to the end of the season. Which 34-year-old is having a career year that he almost certainly can’t duplicate? Who is blocking Chris Snelling? Whose trade value will never be higher?

    Hint: They play “Werewolves of London” when he comes to bat.

  31. Edman said

    LMFAO…..Ibanez is here to stay. Who cares if he is having a career year? If he plays as he has for the last handful of seasons, that’s enough.

    He won’t be traded….give it up. Snelling’s ceiling isn’t better than Ibanez, since Snelling will be lucky to EVER hit more than 15 homeruns in a season. Ten might be a reach.

  32. Gorman said

    Tim,

    Can you name someone? I can’t think of anyone except maybe Raul…

  33. DIQ said

    Since when do the number of homeruns hit define how good a ballplayer one is?

    Please back up that statement with fact or evidence.

  34. It is a factor, DIQ. Just not the lone factor.

  35. Snave said

    I love the Broussard deal. The M’s can use Perez and Broussard at DH for the rest of the season and beyond, and they will have what should be excellent hitting from that slot in the lineup. There ought to be no comparison between the performance of Everett and a platoon of Perez/Broussard.

    This does, however, also make me wonder if a Sexson deal is in the works. I wouldn’t mind if there is one, especially if the team could get a good pitcher in return. Jason, do you think there are any other teams which would want Joel Pineiro, and if so, what could the M’s get in return for Pineiro at this point? Would Seattle try to package Sexson and Pineiro? Which contending teams might want a power-hitting first baseman?

    Michael S., I agree… this is one of my favorite things about the baseball season re. off-field aspects, along with Hot Stove time.

    Anyway, it seems to me like the Mariners have gotten a lot better today, and that they might continue to get better without having to trade away their farm system’s best talents if they play their cards well.

  36. AK1984 said

    Well, the Seattle Mariners made a shrewd move by trading outfielder Shin-Soo Choo and a player to be named later (PTBNL) to the Cleveland Indians for designated hitter Ben Broussard.

    Anyway, if the PTBNL in the abovementioned trade is major league ready and currently on the disabled list, as has been previously mentioned by several people, then it’s probably one of the following players:

    CF Jeremy Reed
    SS Mike Morse
    SP Clint Nageotte
    SP Jesse Foppert
    RP Sean Green

    With Mill Creek resident Grady Sizemore roaming center field in Cleveland and Frankie Gutierrez playing center field in Triple-A (AAA) for the Buffalo Bison, there is no room for Reed on the Indians; likewise, with Jhonny Peralta at shortstop in Cleveland and Asdrubal Cabrera playing shortstop in AAA for the Bison, there is no room for Morse on the Indians.

    Nageotte, his poor preformances he’s had at the Major League level during his stints in Seattle during the 2004, 2005, and 2006 seasons notwithstanding, is considered a top prospect by the M’s who could crack the rotation come 2007; thus, the M’s are unlikely to deal him. As it concerns the oft-injured Foppert, however, he’s most likely unwanted by the Indians due to the fact that his trade value is next to nothing at this point in time.

    On the other hand, though, Green — who, regardless of his below-average K:BB ratio, is a solid relief pitcher with a deceptive sinker that baffles right-handed hitters — would be a solid fit in the Indians bullpen, as he’d be the perfect long-term replacement for the recently traded Bob Wickman as Cleveland’s closer.

  37. I heard it’s a better player than any of the above.

  38. Willmore said

    Campillo ?

  39. DIQ said

    Clint Nageotte is going to the bullpen and no longer considered a ‘top’ prospect.

    PTBNL thing is starting to scare me. If it’s C+/B- level, I wonder by who’s standard that is b/c there is slim pickings in our farm to begin with.

    Just tell me it’s not one of our top ten?

  40. Jerry said

    RE 36/37

    I hope that it isn’t someone better than the guys on that list.

    I guess that I am just not as stoked about this trade as everyone else is.

    Ditching Everett? Great. But that is sorta like deciding to stop punching yourself in the nuts. It is a good decision, but it leads one to wonder why that decision wasn’t made way earlier, and why it was necessary in the first place.

    Is Broussard really any better than Petagine? Or Snelling?

    I am not too sure about that.

    Clearly, the M’s are better now than they were last night. But I am not doing backflips about this deal.

  41. It’s someone BETTER, because it’s someone who hasn’t pretty much proven how not-so-valuable they are.

  42. AK1984 said

    “This does, however, also make me wonder if a Sexson deal is in the works. I wouldn’t mind if there is one, especially if the team could get a good pitcher in return. Jason, do you think there are any other teams which would want Joel Pineiro, and if so, what could the M’s get in return for Pineiro at this point? Would Seattle try to package Sexson and Pineiro? Which contending teams might want a power-hitting first baseman?”

    Although it won’t happen under almost any circumstance, I’d rejoice if the Seattle Mariners traded starting pitcher Joel Piñeiro, relief pitcher Julio Mateo, and first baseman Richie Sexson to the New York Yankees — so long as the Yankees agree to pay for the remainder of Sexson’s salary (2006: $13,000,000; 2007: $14,000,000; 2008: $14,000,000) — for starting pitcher Philip Hughes (Trenton Thunder {Double-A}: 2.85 ERA; 1.05 WHIP; 90/25 K/BB ratio), who’s an über-prospect.

    In order to make room for Piñeiro, Mateo, and Sexson, New York would probably designate relief pitcher Shawn Chacon for assignment, option relief pitcher T.J. Beam to the Columbus Clippers, and designate second baseman Nick Green for assignment; each of those transactions would benefit the Yankees.

    With regards to the M’s, the loss of Sexson would force the platoon of Ben Broussard and Eddie Perez to move from the designated hitter slot over to first base, while Chris Snelling would join the lineup and become the full-time designated hitter. As it concerns the pitching staff, the M’s would purchase the contract of starting pitcher Francisco Cruceta from the Tacoma Rainiers and insert him in the rotation in place of Piñeiro; similarly, the M’s would purchase the contract of relief pitcher Eric O’Flaherty and insert him in the bullpen in place of Mateo. Lastly, Hughes would be assigned to the Rainiers, so as to replace Cruceta.

  43. AK1984 said

    “I heard it’s a better player than any of the above.”

    Jeff Clement?

    If the Victor Martinez to first base rumors are true, then having Clement as the player to be named later (PTBNL) would make sense, since he can’t be traded until sometime during the upcoming off-season at the beginning of next year.

    If that is the case, however, then it would nulify any positive feelings I have toward the trade itself.

    http://cleveland.indians.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20060706&content_id=1543177&vkey=news_cle&fext=.jsp&c_id=cle

  44. Clement can be traded now… the rule is ONE YEAR after being DRAFTED.

    It’s NOT Clement.

  45. Scruffy Lefty said

    Plus as mentioned on LL it can’t be Reed or Green because of this rule

    There are two restrictions at work here. First, the transaction must be completed within six months. And second, the player named later can’t have played in the same league as the team he’s being traded to. That’s why the player named later is almost always a minor leaguer.

  46. Andren said

    No way it’s Clement. I thought the PTBNL is determined by how effective Broussard is for us for the remainder of ’06?

    I think for the first time I disagree with you JAC (which speaks to how much I value this site) regarding batting Sexson in the 3-hole vs. left-handers. That’s waaaay too many strikeouts for that slot IMO. I think Joh should be there.

  47. Jerry said

    RE Sexson

    The M’s recent moves suggest that they are in full-bore win-now mode.

    Trading Sexson wouldn’t be consistent with that.

  48. Andren said

    I only trade Big Richie IF we somehow got a sign-and-trade deal w/ the Giants for Schmidt. The likelihood of that is miniscule however.

    If the recent dealings have shown that the FO really is serious about making a run (and I can’t see any other reason why they would do as such) then starting pitching needs to be a priority before Monday. Who can be had? It would appear that if you remove teams from our division and those that are in contention there aren’t a whole lot of teams to deal with. Add to that the fact that Bavasi went out and got his DH problem solved, it appears to be quite an accomplishment.

  49. ACabGone said

    Snelling optioned back to Tacoma. Snelling the PTBNL? Its possible

  50. Rick said

    Hey guys…I come here often to read up but never post. First off, I like the deal…a lot. 2nd, I don’t like it because Snelling is now up with the big club. I like Broussard. Snelling was hitting what .240ish in the PCL? Does no one else think that the injuries have caught up to him?
    Anyways, I like the move and I hope that an arm is on the way soon….and PLEASE let Bavasi DFA Mateo next.

  51. Rick said

    Also, Beltre really has been producing lately. Take out April and he is at .284/.336/.475. Certainly not what we paid for, but its a helluva lot better than what we’ve got out of anyone @ 3B in a LONG time.

  52. Andren said

    Does the ‘player cant play in the same league’ rule apply to whether or not you actually played or had one day of experience on the roster? If it’s the latter, maybe they brought Snelling up to avoid him being in that pool of players who are eligible for PTBNL status. Wow, that’s sounds wacky, but FO’s do sneaky stuff like that all the time. Why else would they bring him up knowing full well they were watching the ink dry on the Broussard deal?

  53. AK1984 said

    “Clement can be traded now… the rule is ONE YEAR after being DRAFTED.”

    Okay, sweet, I thought it was one year after being signed rather than being drafted.

    Anyway, that notwithstanding, Rob Johnson would make sense.

    “The M’s recent moves suggest that they are in full-bore win-now mode. Trading Sexson wouldn’t be consistent with that.”

    True. Acquiring Philip Hughes, while in turn dumping Richie Sexson’s fat contract, is nothing more than a pipe dream.

  54. Willmore said

    I think that Johnson is involved in a different trade either at the deadline or in the off-season.

    PS: The more I think about the trade, the less I like it. Petagine would have been just as good in the platoon role, IMO, as would have Snelling, probably. If Sexson isn’t traded, we basically gave away 2 players in Choo and the PTBNL for marginal, if any, improvement in our offense. Choo could have served as a part of a larger trade that would give us a pitcher. Then again, if they do trade Sexson for pitching, the trade works and I’m happy.

  55. DIQ said

    Again Willmore you know this how?

    Just speculating?

    Please tell me, which team would give us pitching that will make an impact NOW.

  56. Willmore said

    Yes, I’m speculating, that what fans do in blog comments, they speculate.

    And to answer you, none. I’m not looking for impact. I’m looking for a #4 pitcher who will be our #5.

  57. Goose said

    Here’s the thing though Willmore, your not taking the manager into account.

    Hagrove pretty much refused to use Petagine the first time he was up with us, what makes you think he would use him the 2nd time?

    Bavasi had to make this trade to force Hargrove to play good players.

    Even more reason why they should fire his sorry ass.

  58. Allen Jacobs said

    I like the move…hopefully the rotation gets addressed as well.

  59. Oly Rainiers Fan said

    Dependent on who the PTBNL is, well, that’ll impact whether I’m thinking this is a good deal or not. On the face of it, I think I said ‘helluva deal’, but hey, I really like Rob Johnson AND Jeff Clement. (Johnson has been my favorite Rainier all season if I were really to fess up).

    P-I is saying today it seems like, for what Cleveland is probably looking for, it’d be either a relief pitcher (they suggested Flannery or Livingston) or a catcher (Clement or Johnson).

  60. Alex said

    For the love of God, stop even speculating that Clement is the PTBNL. It is blatantly clear that the M’s are not going to trade him, especially for a platoon DH.

  61. Salty Dog said

    I like this move.

    Replacing Everett with Perez/Broussard is a major upgrade – probably the single biggest offensive upgrade we could have made. We’ll go from a sub-.700 OPS to a .900+ OPS at the DH slot. And both guys can be kept for next year.

    Choo is a RF, with his great arm, and Ichiro’s in RF for the foreseeable future. He’s a good prospect, but expendable.

    Maybe Snelling could have been the LH part of the DH platoon. But going with the maybe solution is a good way to get yourself fired.

    Given Bavasi’s comments, it sounds like they want to see Snelling get his speed back so they can see how he fits in CF. Not sure how that would work out, but it’s an interesting idea.

    With Jones starting to hit, I think we now have solid bats at every spot in the lineup, guys that can legitimately contend for a pennant – this year and in the near future.

  62. Rick said

    Choo made it painfully obvious in his small sample size that CF was too much for him. He and Snelling are essentially the same player at the plate, so letting Choo go is a no brainer.

    Just wondering why a lot of you think that a LH hitting 1B/DH with HR pop currently @ .321/.361/.519 and 4 years of experience doing it at the big league level on a semi-regular basis is the same thing as Roberto Petagine? And are you upset that Choo is gone? Why?

  63. Knuckles said

    Jason: Would the PTBNL be someone like Quiroz or Rivera, rather than Johnson or Clement? I can’t see even Bavasi flipping Clement for Broussard.

  64. MatthewCarruth said

    Does the ‘player cant play in the same league’ rule apply to whether or not you actually played or had one day of experience on the roster?

    I believe the actual interpretation is on the same league’s roster. That is, anyone on the major league roster this season is ineligible. Either way, it’s not Morse, Green, or Reed. Almost surely not Snelling. Rob Johnson makes sense or even someone like Michael Garciaparra. As long as it’s no one like O’Flaherty, I’m cool with it.

  65. Willmore said

    Because Petagine could have had identical numbers to Broussard against righties. Petagine would have been the far better DH, except Hargrove is an idiot.

  66. Rick said

    What do you see here:
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/p/petagro01.shtml
    http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/brousbe01.shtml
    That makes you think Petagine would be better?

  67. Willmore said

    http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/P/Roberto-Petagine.shtml

  68. Rick said

    Japan success doesn’t always translate….please see Warren Cromartie, Kevin Romine, etc.
    Petagine has some gaping holes in his swing…which is the very reason why he has never seen more than 120ish AB’s in the Major Leagues.
    Pitching in Japan isn’t nearly at the level of MLB pitching and several borderline guys from the states (almost always power hitters) tear it up over there.

  69. gwangung said

    Um, I don’t think those figures say what you think they’re saying.

    Broussard is six years younger with somewhat better figures in a park that depressed his power.

  70. Edman said

    Willmore….at least when I make stupid statements about “apparent” performance, I say words like “should”, “might”, “could”…..etc.

    Your statement about Petagine is so far off the mark, it’s ridiculous. You don’t KNOW crap about how Petagine would perform. You can speculate all you want. But, there is one HUGE difference between Broussard and Petagine……..Broussard IS hitting in the majors……Petagine hasn’t done that with enough AB’s to prove squat.

    This isn’t fantasy league crap. Roto baseball has ruined much of the observation of the game. Math major wannabes attempt to use some for of science to determine the future. It has it’s merit, but will always be flawed, because human beings are the most unpredicable variable you can imagine.

    Grow a little humility, and stop stating your opinion as fact. Petagine putting up those kind of numbers is somewhere in the 20% range, since you like to play with math.

  71. Edman said

    Bavasi stated that there are a list of untouchable players. On Gasman’s show, he said, paraphrasing, “…..a list with players such as Jeff Clement”

    He has determined that there are certain players key to the future, and will not deal them.

  72. Willmore said

    Edman, now go back and re-read my statement. I never said that Petagine was guaranteed to post better number, I said that he could post them. My point was simply that had Hargrove not been a moron, we might not have had to deal Choo, because we already would have had that platoon partner for Perez.

    Second of all, I don’t play fantasy baseball and could care less about it, I care about my team, and that’s it. Petagine’s stats indicate that he was simply never give a good shot at performing in the majors.

    His Japan stats are identical to Matsui’s before Matsui came to the majors. That tells me something.

    I don’t know how good Petagine would have been, had he been give a shot, but I can say with certainty that he would have been better than Everett, and maybe as good, if not better than Broussard.

  73. DIQ said

    You guys are comedy.

  74. Andren said

    Methinks Rob Johnson is on the short list. BTW, we should have Quieroz up for Rene Rivera but that’s a whole other issue.

  75. cgot said

    Yeah you guys are funny.

    ——————–
    check out my blog at
    http://spanishnow.wordpress.com
    ——————–

  76. Willmore said

    Cgot, are you just spamming to advertise your blog ?

  77. DIQ said

    Rob Johnson is still a couple years away, so I have no problem dealing him, even though he was doing really well offensively before being rushed Tacoma.

    If at all possible I’d deal Rivera and call up Quiroz, but maybe that’s just b/c I never really liked Rivera’s slap-hitting offense and flukish numbers in his call-up last year.

    I have a feeling it’s a pitcher. Imagine the irony in the Indians trading to get Francisco Cruceta back. Is this even possible?

    *Knock on wood

  78. eponymous coward said

    We could have easily had a platoon producing like Broussard/Perez with Petagine as one of the hitters. It’s not an unreasonable assertion, given Petagine’s J League/minor league performance. Petagine is like a host of other guys who are major league hitters who, for a number of reasons, didn’t get the opportunities in the majors they legitmately deserved, like Mike Easler, Ken Phelps, Buzz Arlett and Steve Bilko. It happens more frequently than you’d think.

    What makes this even MORE annoying is we could have had a Petagine/Perez or Marcus Thames platoon being a solid DH for LESS than the cost of Everett. Let’s see, that’s Aurilia, Spiezio, AND Everett in the space of 3 years, wasting something like 25 million in Mariner payroll. And people wonder why I’m not in the Bavasi Amen Corner? That’s it right there, folks. If every year Bill Bavasi flubbing 5-10 million in payroll in free agent signings SO badly that we DFA the signing well before the contract is up, how is that a positive indicator as to his talent evaluation skills? That’s a classic Cam Bonifay/Allard Baird move- to sign veterans over 30 who crap out like that. (And that’s not even getting into Washburn. Or Beltre/Sexson. Ugh.)

    All that being said, a 29 year old version of Petagine as a platoon DH > the 34 year old version, and I like the move- and Bavasi stealing Mark Shapiro’s idea for a 1B platoon and sticking them at DH is better than suffering through more Carl Everett.

    This does kind of block Snelling for now, but I’d just as soon he played as often as possible in Tacoma than ride pine in Seattle. We know he can hit- we don’t know that he can stay healthy. Come the offseason, we’ll have options- the ability to flip Sexson, for instance, and put Snelling and/or Raul at DH with the DH platoon sliding to 1B (What I fear what Bavasi would do is try and trade Sexson to the Yankees for Pavano, who he loves, though), or to deal an OF in a package for pitching (maybe try and spring Rich Hill or something).

  79. johnb said

    I think it will probably be a pitcher based on what Cleveland is looking for rather than a position player. Nag’s, or Livington come to mind. Of course it is just a guess on who it could be.

  80. msb said

    anyone know anything about this??

    Sports Transactions From The Sports Network
    Thursday, July 27, 2006

    Seattle Mariners – Placed outfielder Chris Snelling on the 15-day disabled list.

  81. msb said

    and on the heels of hitting send, KJR says “shoulder impingement”

  82. Goose said

    It’s getting to the point where that’s almost becoming funny.

    He didn’t step onto a major league field this time before getting injured.

    What’s next? He’s gonna be in AAA, get called to the managers office and the manager is gonna say “Chris, you’ve been called up, congratulations.” and as soon as he finishes his sentence, a body part is going to explode.

    Which makes the Broussard trade even more valuable.Because our other option was Snelling/Perez. If we hadn’t of aquired Broussard, we’d probably be looking at a Dobbs/Perez platoon at DH. Or maybe a Petagina/Perez platoon but I don’t see Hargrove playing Petagine.

  83. msb said

    the AP: “After the Mariners called up outfielder Chris Snelling from Tacoma Wednesday they discovered he has a sore left shoulder. He did not play Wednesday night, and Thursday he was placed on the 15-day disabled list.”

  84. marc w. said

    This used to be ruefully funny, as in ‘Man, that dude is cursed. Damn, sucks to be him (and an M’s fan).’

    Then it moved to the depressing stage: ‘This is not fair. The best natural hitting talent we have, and he’s struck by lighting 4 times. The gods hate Chris (and M’s fans), so let’s call him different names to appease them.’

    Now it’s almost back to funny: ‘Oh my god, you injured Snelling!’ ‘You bastard!’

    All I want is one injury-free period in his life, with or without Seattle. I used to want like 8 years – less than a normal career, but still substantial. Now, I just want him to have what Bobby frickin Madritsch had.

  85. Willmore said

    At least this explains his performance in Tacoma the last few weeks.

  86. Michael S. said

    Hello PEOPLE ANSWER MY ? WHAT TIME IS THE TRADE DEADLINE ON MON???

    To bad about Snelling.

  87. Edman said

    Deadline is midnight, EST.

  88. eponymous coward said

    No, it’s not funny. It’s sad- all the guy wants to do is play ball, and his body is betraying him in his 20’s.

  89. Willmore said

    “Deadline is midnight, EST.”

    I thought they changed it to mid-day a few years back.

  90. Willmore said

    Correction: it’s actually 4 pm Eastern time.

  91. Edman said

    Hmmmm…..they did change it

  92. fertfert said

    Hey JAC, any chance Blackley could get a promotion to Tacoma any time this year? He’s been putting up some real good starts lately, with the exception of a 2 inning, 6 run performance against Arkansas. I’d love to see him or Feierabend get a shot in place of Dorman.

  93. Willmore said

    They want to keep Blackley in San Antonio, with the better weather to help his shoulder. Besides, the difference isn’t that great between AA and AAA. In fact, in AA, Blackley will likely face more top prospects than in AAA.

  94. John Doe said

    Snelling is the dh tonight at Tacoma on a “rehab assignment.” I can’t believe Greg Hunter, et al, did not have a plan in place to replace Choo with an AAA outfielder. It would make no sense to promote Balentien or Wilson now.
    When are the M’s going to admit something is wrong with Morrow?

  95. KB said

    #94: Why do you believe there’s something wrong with Morrow? He just pitched a few days ago….

  96. Drew said

    whhhatttt…. please tell me Morrow is OK!

    Maybe they just want to shut him down because of his workload?

  97. Willmore said

    I doubt something is wrong. He probably is pitching plenty of simulated games and getting some coaching in.

  98. Rice told me Saturday that Morrow was going to pitch within 48 hours and he did. He’s throwing quite a bit on the side.

    There is no injury.

    And why are you blaming Greg Hunter for ANYTHING but looking like a slick lawyer?

  99. John Doe said

    Pat Rice is a nice guy but he is saying what he has been told to say. Greg Reynolds and Brad Lincoln each threw 30 more innings in college than Morrow and they are both starting at single-A teams. In a year when the M’s have FINALLY moved their prospects up so Billy B. has “inventory” to work with in DH trades, it seems curious that they are, for lack of better word, babying, their top draft pick. Let Morrow take the innings of Done and/or Trolia at IE if for some unknown reason he needs to “build up his arm.” Morrow is still rotting in Peoria, WHY? Meanwhile, Hunter Brown is playing lf for Tacoma for what he says is the first time since high school. Greg Hunter looks like what?

  100. Willmore said

    Dude, I’m sure that they know far better than you about developing arms.

    Jason, I’ve got a fucked up idea, and I need you to tell me it’s either stupid or has some merit (likely the former).

    Idea: Why don’t we trade for Bruce Chen as our #5 starter ? His current season seems a bit too flukey to me, and if he’s put at Safeco, he could be good. Better than Pineiro at least, and he’s not going to cost much, if anything in terms of both money and prospects.

  101. Not the worst idea ever, but if you are going to make a change get someone significantly better. Not an ace, of course, or even a 2 or 3… but a legit arm that can go 6 innings each time out.

    Chen isn’t that guy. He has no track record of success.

  102. Willmore said

    I know, but I don’t see anyone else trully available in the AL, and the NL scares me lately. And if we’re really in contention, as Bavasi hopes, I am not comfortable leaving the spot to either Pineiro or Cruceta, or any other minor-leaguer.

  103. Walrus said

    Jason,
    By your earlier comments, Is it safe to say that the PTBNL is probably one of the following….R.Johnson, Cruceta, Feierabend, Kahn, Jimenez, O’Flarety, Livingston, Blackley, M.Wilson, J.Thomas, Balentien, Quiroz, Oldham, Bazardo, or Chen.
    Assuming yes, do you think the Indians have their choice of whomever is on the list, or does the list of players vary based on how well Brousard does these next 2+ months?

  104. Rick said

    Hey, be nice to Hunter….he was one of the assistant coaches for me in College. I really like the guy. Plus he was like 3rd in hitting for the scabs in ST back when the big boys went on strike.
    Plus I would kill for his job.

  105. Rick said

    Is Willmore the only guy that is freaking over losing Choo? ‘Cause frankly, I just don’t see what the fuss is about.

  106. Willmore said

    Jason, I am now very very pumped about this Ramirez kid from our VSL club. What do you know about him, and could you ask around ?

  107. DIQ said

    Willmore what do you know about him so far that gets you pumped up?

    Please do share. Thanks!

  108. Willmore said

    His performance this year. I know that performance in the VSL means little as to possible future performance, but his stats just plain impress me. Just today he pitched a shutout.

  109. Walrus said

    Losing Choo does not bother me…the PTBNL however really worries me…I still do not trust Bavasi to make the smart moves.

  110. DIQ said

    What’s his full name and can you post some of his stats up?

    It’s late and I’m bored.

  111. Irfan said

    The Honda Atlas CarPakistan launched the country’s first Euro-3 compliant car Honda City-2006 at a ceremony held on Saturday.

  112. Matthew said

    The Ms obviously feel Morrow is better suited working mostly in side sessions the rest of this year. There’s pretty much no basis for saying the Ms are babying him when he’s been with the team for 6 weeks.

  113. Willmore said

    Juan Ramirez. 17 years old. 1.80 ERA, 60 IP, 52 K, 32 BB, 39 H.

  114. DIQ said

    111. WTH?

    I thought the original plan was to have him start at Inland Empire and finish the season in San Antonio. I’d like to see him move up the minors quickly too but I’m sure they know what they’re doing.

    As for Ramirez. That’s an alrarmingly high walk rate right there, but he is only 17.

  115. Rick said

    That’s what I was going to say. 4.8 BB/9.

  116. Willmore said

    High, but not excessively so for a 17-year old. Felix had a 3.93 BB/9 in Everett when he was 17. And Kahn had 14 walks in 18 innings last year in Everett.

    Walk will improve, what impresses me is that he keeps zeroes on the board, and now he’s also showing endurance.

  117. KB said

    Speaking of impressive, in Peoria (around 100 at-bats each):

    1B Gerardo Avila (L): .343/.387/.556
    OF Carlos Peguero (L): .300/.366/.630
    3B Alex Liddi (R): .336/.388/.505

    Has anyone else noticed that Yung-Chi Chen’s slugging percentage is surging this year? Interesting stuff…

  118. jhelfgott said

    Hey Jason –

    Question: what’s up with Halman?

    Hasn’t been playing for almost a week. Hurt?

  119. Rick said

    Could just be his complete disregard for the strike zone. Seriously, the guy can rake–he hits everything hard, but take a pitch every once in a while.

  120. Bilbo said

    Jason, I heard Morrow is out with a sore elbow. Any light you can shed?

  121. Willmore said

    Considering that Morrow was scheduled to pitch yesterday, and that he has been trying to get his arm up to par, that wouldn’t surprise me.

  122. Beanball said

    LOL, can’t help but chuckle. A 1-0 loss to the indians with Choo hitting a solo HR for cleveland. Thats funny…….

  123. sore does not equal injured. Remember that.

    He’s just battling tendonitis, which is pretty normal after a long layoff.

    It’s like spring training.

  124. Goose said

    Like I said in a few other places sometimes I think baseball is fixed like wrestling. Cause, how predictable was that?

    Me and about a dozen other people seen it coming a mile away.

    Now the question is, how many idiots are gonna use that to justify them saying that the Broussard trade was a bad one?

  125. Morrow is SORE, not HURT…. He’s pitching tonight in Peoria.

  126. Goose said

    BTW just in case there is any confusion, I was referring to the Choo homer, not Morrow’s situation.

  127. Jerry said

    RE 113 and 117:

    VSL and Rookie league stats are very suspect. At that level, scouting trumps all else.

    Avila is 20, and seems to be hitting pretty well. But there hasn’t been much information available for him. His stats look good, but he is striking out at a pretty high rate (nearly 1/3 of ABs).

    Peguero is even more interesting. He is 19 years old, 6’5″, and a lefthanded hitter with serious power. That is exactly what we need. However, his K rates are even worse than Avila’s. On the other hand, scouts seem to pay more attention to him, which is obviously a plus.

    Liddi seems like an interesting player. He is big, is having success at age 17, and his peripheral stats are a bit better. His power seems to be mostly doubles right now, but at that age, doubles are a good sign. However, there hasn’t been much information about him either. But, just on paper, he looks like a nice prospects.

    However, it is nearly impossible to get a good idea of how good these guys are based only on stats and internet data. The age/performance issue is big. But in the lower levels, even up to short season leagues, scouting is far more useful than stats. Guys like Greg Halman don’t look that awesome from a stats perspective, but he has great tools and scouts love him. In these cases, sources like Churchill and Baseball America are a lot more useful than stats. This is more true the farther down the organizational ladder one goes.

  128. Allen Jacobs said

    Morrow pitched 2 innings allowing no runs and 3K’s on Friday so did the so called news on the injury come after the game?

  129. DIQ said

    Unless that’s sarcasm I think JAC already answered that in the post above.

  130. justice said

    Elliott Muller is a corporate criminal! Do not do business with him.

  131. Allen said

    Sorry Jason, I missed your previous post.

  132. MatthewCarruth said

    Jason, any word on SS Eduardo Paret and 3B Yulienski Gourriel? They both defected.

  133. Knuckles said

    Damn, Jason. You’re getting popular enough that they are finally spamming your comments. Me, I’m thrilled to see the M’s lose that way. I always liked Choo, both as a player and a person (he was always very, very cool to my boys at Rainiers games). Good on ya, Choo.

  134. 1996Coug said

    Jason-

    I hope you have a big server, because your site rules and with USSMariner decommissioned this is the place to be. Keep it up, man.

    I keep hearing Sexson for Schmidt on the radio here in the Bay Area. Have you heard anything from anyone who ACTUALLY KNOWS something?

  135. Jerry said

    Sexson for Schmidt?

    I would do that in a heartbeat.

    Obviously, losing Sexson would open another hole in the offense. But 1B is the easiest spot to address in the offseason. Right now, Snelling could play DH with Broussard and Perez playing 1B.

    Schmidt would go a long ways towards patching up our pitching. With a legit ace pitcher, the M’s would become a real factor in the playoff race, and more than an afterthought in the playoffs. This is the one move that would actually make a huge difference in where the M’s stand.

    With Schmidt, the M’s rotation would be: Schmidt, Meche, Moyer, Felix, Washburn. Wow.

    Although Schmidt is technically a rental, I don’t think that resigning him would be that tough. With Sexson off the books, the M’s would have more than ample money. In this scenario, they wouldn’t have to give up a draft pick to sign him either. Next years draft is looking like a good one. The M’s would be in a position to gain pick instead of lose them.

    I don’t see this trade happening. I haven’t seen any links that support this rumor. But it would be a pretty sound move in my opinion.

  136. Willmore said

    Yulienski Gourriel defected ? There’s your 3rd baseman of the future !!! If the Mariners are able to sign him, I can forgive Bavasi anything.

  137. Willmore said

    Here’s the news: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2533062&campaign=rss&source=MLBHeadlines

  138. jhelfgott said

    Paret´s 33. He´s not a big-money target.

    He might get a minor league deal, but even then, he´ll be helped out by the mystique surrounding Cuban players.

    Gourriel is a true potential impact player. Whoever signs him is getting a premier prospect with the bat (still has to be considered a prospect despite the lengthy resume) and a gold glove quality infield defender.

    Morales got $3 million guaranteed with the potential for earning up to $10 million in incentives.

    I´m betting Gourriel gets considerably more. Between the WBC and his years of experience in international competition, every team has gotten to see him multiple times. This is huge.

    He probably won´t be able to sign for awhile. He has to officially emigrate to another country before he can sign a major-league contract. Kendry Morales defected in June of 2004, and wasn´t signed until December, and then had to wait even longer to make his debut stateside.

    I highly doubt the Ms get involved. When the bidding war for Gourriel starts, the Ms will hopefully be focused on acquiring Matsuzaka.

  139. Willmore said

    I would expect the Mariners to get involved. We might not win, but like Contreras, we’ll be in it.

  140. KB said

    #127: Arizona stats are certainly suspect— it doesn’t change the fact that those hitters are separating themselves. Of course, if I knew more scouts, I’d get the skinny from them. I did just notice that Avila and Liddi made JAC’s Seattle PI top ten list this week however…

  141. 1996Coug said

    The Schmidt for Sexson thing is coming from sorts radio guys with sources inside the organization (grain of salt). Nothing appears imminnet from their perspective, but I found it very interesting being a M’s fan. Schmidt and Sexson were only part of the deal. Thye were also talking Choo (now gone to CLE) and others. Nothing imminent. Maybe something can be worked out over the weekend.

    One thing that appears rock solid is that Schmidt will not re-sign with SF. They talk as if he’ll be pitching in SEA next year anyway.

  142. jhelfgott said

    The Ms won’t go after Gourriel and Matsuzaka.

    With Lopez in place as the 2B of the future, take a wild guess which one they’d prefer.

    I don’t have anything on Avila, but Liddi’s a really interesting one. A little bit thicker than Halman but similar body type, more level swing, but also a more polished approach. Great bat control and quick wrists.

    Overall Liddi has less power potential than Halman, but similar overall upside. If one or both of them do what I think they’re capable of over the next couple years, I think we’re going to see an explosion in European signings similar to what happened in Australia 5-6 years back.

  143. Gourriel is going to be the most expensive Cuban “prospect” EVER.

    One front office guy told me he would be surprised if Gourriel didn’t get 8 to 10 times what Betancourt got.

  144. WAB said

    So, in other words, the M’s have no shot/interest?

  145. Correct.

    The money involved would mean they’d pretty much have to trade Beltre without eating 75% of the deal.

    Gourriel is pretty close to ML ready, if he isn’t there already.

  146. Willmore said

    Gourriel isn’t a 2nd base prospect, jhelfgott, he’s a 3rd base or OG prospect. Guess what we need ? A 3rd baseman to replace Beltre or a power-hitting LFer.

    And the 8-10 times of what Betancourt got isn’t as much as it sounds. Betancourt signed for an average of 700 grand per year. Meaning that Gourriel would fetch 5.5-7 mil per year over 4-5 years. That’s your run of the mill free agent contract. And considering that he’s 22, I think he might be worth it. Gourriel might prefer to go to Seattle, considering Betancourt and keeping in mind what happened to Contreras. Also, the Yankees are stocked in the OF and at 3rd, he’s not getting a whiff of action in NY. And his agent knows it. Gourriel will go to eiher the Dodgers or to Seattle.

    Though what the hell do I know, I’m just speculating.

  147. Willmore said

    OG=OF.

  148. Willmore… the dude is a middle infielder. DO you even know who you are talking about?

    Sure, his bat plays at third, or anywhere, but his value at second or short.

  149. Willmore said

    He can’t play second, he’s built like a 3rd baseman. He played at 2nd during the classic to get some other guy into the lineup, who only plays 3rd.

    Gourriel has 30-35 homer potential in the majors, he’s either a 3rd baseman or an outfielder, he can’t play middle infield.

  150. Willmore said

    Quote for the BA article on him:

    “For me, he’s a No. 1 guy, and he’s a power hitter who fits the third base profile,” said a scout with extensive international experience.

  151. Willmore said

    http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/features/060302wbccuba3b.html

  152. Willmore… start wrapping up your posts into one. Seeing three in a row from you is making me sick.

    Now, MANY middle infielders with power fit the third base profile.

    That means jack. if he can play short or second, that’s where he’s going to play.

    Imagine the Yankees with a choice… Cano, Jeter, Gourriel and trade AROD, or Gourriel, Jeter and AROD and trade Cano.

    Thank you, drive through.

  153. Willmore said

    Yeah, sorry about the posts.

    If Gourriel could play 2nd or Short, don’t you think he would do so for his regular team in Cuba ? But he doesn’t, he plays 3rd base regularly, and he has the potential to be really good there in the majors. At short or 2nd, he is nothing more than average.

    Gourriel at 2nd for the Yankees could work, but I think that the new and improved Cashman-led Yankees would prefer to keep an all-star 2nd baseman for the minimum over an unproven, risky, expensive 2nd baseman who will want a major-league contract from day 1 for 5-6 years. The Yankees aren’t doing these deals anymore. As silly as it might sound, but teams can price the Yankees out of Gourriel, if they offer enough.

  154. Willmore.

    Shut the fuck up. That’s not a request. Just fucking do it.

    You are talking out of your ass, misinterpreting everyone else’s posts and bogging down the conversation at Prospect Insider.

    I’m not even going to respond to the ridiculousness of the remainder of what was left of your previous post.

    Not another comment from you on the matter, because if someone disagrees with your opinion, which is solely and purely based on someone else’s thoughts to begin with, you will argue with them until people can pronounce your real first name.

    That’s it. Your done. Not on this thread, not on this subject. No more.

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