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The Latest

Posted by Jason A. Churchill on December 6, 2006

UPDATE: I know everyone is freaking out about the Bill Shanks report of Soriano-for-Ramirez, but check the THIRD comment in this post and you may feel a little better.

I know most of you – or all of you – have read the rumors of a trade between the Atlanta Braves and your Seattle Mariners. Everyone is reporting it as a possibility, and some have even mentioned a three-way deal.

To clarify, some reports are that Richie Sexson would go to the San Francisco Giants, Rafael Soriano would head to Atlanta to close, and the Seattle Mariners would end up with Adam LaRoche and Noah Lowry.

Some have the M’s ending up with Tim Hudson and Adam LaRoche.

For the record, I love both ideas, and just heard how serious those talks are right now.

“Extremely serious,” quipped one AL front office executive. “That’s the only thing they have been active on all day today.”

It seems the Mariners had a good idea they were going to lose out on Jason Schmidt, and built a trade scenario that returns a lefty stick and a starting pitcher to Seattle in the process. But that doesn’t mean the Mariners didn’t try for Schmidt. They just weren’t going to get in a bidding war for him.

“I heard what everyone has heard,” said the suit, a former GM in the NL. “I heard once LA came with three and 45+, Seattle and maybe even St. Louis went to four. But the money was different. Someone in Seattle told me they weren’t going to go past 12-13 mil for Schmidt, and if that is on line, that’s a 4-year deal for about 50 million. The Dodgers offered, what, 47 for three?”

Fact is, 3/47 isn’t the worst signing ever, but it’s not a good value at all. The Mariners are much better off getting LaRoche, who I really like, and Hudson, who’s owed just $33 million over the next three seasons, and is two years younger than Schmidt.

If Bavasi pulls off a Soriano+Sexson for LaRoche and Hudson trade, it’ll be the best trade the Mariners have made in more than a decade.

But there are apparently more players involved, though I didn’t get any more names, but was assured it wasn’t Adam Jones, Jeff Clement or anyone of substance from the big league roster.

For those who are luke warm on LaRoche, here’s what he is:

A left-handed bat and a legit defensive first baseman who’s just 27 and is due a big raise in his first year of being arbitration eligible. He’s probably on track to get somewhere in the range of 1.2 to 1.6 million, at the most.

LaRoche hit .285/.354/.561 last season with 32 home runs and 55 walks to go with 128 strikeouts in 149 games. He’s still developing and could become a borderline all-star first baseman in the next year or two. He’d be coming to Seattle at the absolute perfect time; he’s already established as a hitter, but he;s still developing his approach and refining his game, while remaining relatively inexpensive over the next three years.

LaRoche is a pretty darned good fit, only bettered by Manny being a Mariner, which isn’t happening, or the M’s snaking Mike Jacobs from Florida, which apparently has no shot of happening either, unless the Mariners are sending Jones to the Marlins, or Soriano+Reed.

Tim Hudson is now 31 years of age and while some think he’s done as a good starting pitcher, I disagree. There are several reasons that Hudson is a good idea for the Seattle Mariners.

1. He’s cheaper than Schmidt, Lilly, Padilla, and even Meche, who are all getting 10+ mil for at least three years, likely four for Lilly and Meche.

2. He’s still an extreme ground ball pitcher, posting a 2.22 G/F a year ago, and with the M’s infield defense being as good as any (esepcially if Sexson is swapped out for LaRoche), Hudson’s traditional numbers (BAA, ERA) will get the auto-improve treatment.

3. He’s still getting a lot of bats to hit out-like balls. Including the ground balls, Hudson induces a lot of broken-bat contact, as well a s adecent amount of not-so-deep fly balls.

4. His HR rate (25 in 218 IP) isn’t awful, though it isn’t good, either. But Safeco will certainly aid him with that problem, too.

5. In Hudson’s final few starts of 2006, one 6-inning, 1 ER start against the Mets and a throw-away loss to the Rockies, he was hitting 87-91 mph with his fastballs that still had good movement to each side of the plate as well as a lot of sinking action. His split is still a tuff pitch when located well.

6′ It’s not Gil Meche or Joel Pineiro — oh, and Hudson is battle tested versus the division.

If Bavasi can pull off this deal, look for the M’s to look to acquire a veteran reliever to pitch in the 8th innings, if they don’t get that in this deal.

Programming note: I’m working on the transcripts from Mike Hargrove’s day with the media from earlier Wednesday. Some boring, but a few interesting things. Instead of typing it out, however, I may just post a link to the PDF

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202 Responses to “The Latest”

  1. Adam said

    ???

    And what about the Soriano deal?

  2. Adam said

    BTW – Dave Cameron and Jeff at LL are now reporting that this is a bogus rumor.

    Cross your fingers.

  3. Sullivan of LookoutLanding.com originally posted that it was true. Cameron of USSMariner.com (which is down temporarily) posted on LL and via email to me that the deal is currently being denied.

    The rumor started at the Braves site on scout.com was Horacio Ramirez for Rafael Soriano straight-up.

  4. MacMariner said

    Are you stating, in a round about way, that the Soriano for Ramirez rumor is false Jason?

  5. Trent said

    Not bogus, just that the M’s are denying it. Two different things.

  6. DIQ said

    Still holding my breath.

  7. I’m home sick today, fellas, and haven’t answered my phone or made a call all day, and don’t plan to. So, for those who have my cell #, don’t call, I won’t answer, and I apologize for having zilch on this rumor.

  8. DIQ said

    JAC_

    Coming to the rescue. It was an emotional roller-coaster the past hour. I think I’m okay now.

  9. Can someone rescue me now, too?

  10. lowrig said

    Jason, What about the supposed deal with Mike Gonzalez of the Pirates going to the Braves for Adam Laroche? Can anyone figure out what the hell is going on. This is insane.

  11. Goose said

    I think we all need rescuing. I’m an emotional wreck. These winter meetings are like a form of torture.

  12. I think we’ll all be joining you with shots of hot buttered rum quite soon…

  13. I’ll hand out my address and supply the pizza and chicken wings if you guys are bringing the rum.

  14. Again, I haven’t heard jack about anything today, so the latest I have on the M’s is this post, that was supposed to go up on auto-post at 230AM, but went up at 230PM instead. Damnit.

    Anyways, Gonzalez is cheaper than Raffy, and a lefthander, so I can see why ATL would prefer Gonzalez over Soriano… but why wouldn’t Seattle just throw in, say, Julio Mateo, who would probably do well in the NL EAST.

    I don’t know anyone in the Braves org anymore, so I can’t even track down the other side if I wanted to.

  15. Okay, I sorta lied.

    I just got an email saying the Braves are denying it, too.

  16. Lamda said

    for putting us all at ease Jason i’m sure I can get the boys to chip on some Busty Blond nurse to come over and get you well again, lol.

  17. WAB said

    THANK THE LORD

  18. haha… I’ll pass on the busty blonde, but thanks!

    And guys, let’s not jump off the cliff – or back away from the cliff too far. It really could go either way here.

    I think we should be very nervous, still.

  19. DIQ said

    JAC_

    If this is true I’ll bring the rum. Who would’ve ever thought I’d wanna celebrate on a trade the Mariners ‘DID NOT’ make?

  20. DIQ said

    An Irish Car Bomb sounds good right about now….

  21. Lamda said

    ok jason so lets assume for a minute that this trade rumor is true – in your estimation – how horrible of a trade would you rate it – soriano for ramirez straight up?

  22. I think it’s terrible, but not simply because I think Ramirez is the worst pitcher ever or anything.

    It’s just nowhere near max value for Raffy no matter whuch way it’s spun and Bavasi is the KING of spinning things his way.

    Ramirez is a solid get, but not after you signed Thomson, if and when that deal goes thru, to join Felix Baek and Wash. That’s a No.3 that will be a No. 1 in a year or two, three 4’s and a 5. You can’t win with that.

  23. DaddyO said

    It is now being reported that the Braves and Pirates are finalizing a deal to swap Mike Gonzalez and Adam LaRoche.

    So LaRoche ain’t going to the M’s.

  24. Serge said

    Ken rosenthall and Dave Obrien are saying its in discussions. Still think its not happening?

  25. ATL is awaiting medical reports on Gonzalez.

  26. Craig said

    How would Brad Penny look for the M’s? Sounds like the Dodgers may look to move him. Would Sexson be a fit there?

  27. Alex said

    I can’t see Bavasi being stupid enough to trade Soriano for Ramirez straight up, at least the bad deals he has made (Winn – Foppert, Garcia – Reed, Olivo, Morse) looked good at the time and were justifiable. If this is true I can’t think of any justification, Soriano should get you much better quality player than Horiaco Ramirez. Plus it would really diminish the strength of our bullpen which is already hurting with the serious Mark Lowe issue. Dammit.

  28. No, Sexson doesnt fit there, but Beltre may. They just signed Nomar to play first and have Loney there, too.

    I doubt LAD takes on another big contract now, though.

    I think it’s Sexson to the Yanks or he stays.

  29. Adam said

    Cameron now says the deal may be back on.

    What a day.

  30. Edman said

    Hmmmm…if it is on, there may be more players involved.

    Soriano for Hudson AND Ramirez? Would make some sense, considering how much money Hudson is set to make….and Soriano doesn’t make.

    Who knows?

  31. Edman said

    Actually, Dave says he’s hearing both that it’s done, and that it’s not.

  32. Adam said

    Hence the word “may”…

  33. The two sides are obviously discussing this, but I have a few questions with today’s occurances.

    1. With Bob Wickman under contract for 2007 at 6.5 million, why in hell would ATL want to add both Mike Gonzalez and Rafael Soriano? They must be thinking of Gonzalez as a setup guy and Soriano as a starter, but geez, other than that it doesn’t make much sense.

    2. If Gonzalez, as a first year arby guy due more than a mil, is worth LaRoche, why isn’t Soriano worth more than Ramirez?

    And 3. Why would Pittsburgh want to swap a closer, something they don’t have, for a more expensive first baseman, something much easier to obtain these days than in previous years, such as the Duffy for Jacobs rumors last month?

  34. Adam said

    Jason, have you noticed the Marlins/Rays rumors about Baldelli?

    Throws a wrench in the Reed talks, no?

  35. The Reed thing was probably not going any further than Reed for Lindstrom anyways.

  36. Malcolm said

    Dave O Brien at the AJC says this is a “done deal”

  37. Serge said

    Its on ESPN, and CBS Sportsline as well. Its done. Dont know who denied it but he was wrong

  38. Lamda said

    i mean really – could we not have moved Soriano to Colorado for Jennings instead??? this is a joke…. I held the Keep the Faith with our FO more than anybody… but this is just pathetic. Its a desperate move by a desperate man. I’d have rather they gave Zito the huge money than to hear this.

  39. DIQ said

    I wanna break something. I’m heated.

  40. Beady Eyes said

    #38 – I’m feelin’ ya, but this deal hasn’t officially been announced. I am betting it’s true, but I checked all the usual sites and nobody is saying anything yet.

  41. Ryan said

    seattle times has it

  42. Ralph said

    Can we trade Putz and Clement for John Schuerholz? Add his name to the list of Williams and Shapiro of GM’s who have fleeced the Mariners in recent years. Worst run organization in the major leagues, and it’s not even a contest.

    And believe me, he’s not done yet. There are a few more #5 starters available out there who are coveted by Bavasi.

  43. MMjohns195 said

    This is the kind of thing that makes you not want to be a baseball fan, if this is true its absolutly ridiculous.

  44. thr33niL said

    Reprehensible is the only word I can use to describe this. There is no way you can spin it to make a it a positive move. We just gave up a premium reliever for a washed up starter. You have to go back almost 4 years to see anything decent about Ramirez.

    Theres just not justification for this rash, panic driven blunder by Bavasi.

  45. MMjohns195 said

    The Article on the AJC said that atlanta pulled back on the laroche for gonzalez deal to possibly send him to anaheim for cotchman and figgins

  46. Russ said

    I’m so mad at this deal I am shaking right now. Bavasi is the biggest IDIOT in baseball.

  47. Ryan said

    Have been a huge Mariner fan for 15 years.. This could possibly be the single worst day in Mariner offseason history.

    Completely miss the slam dunk Schmidt, and now this!!

  48. Adam said

    45 – Now that just isn’t funny….

  49. Jaysung said

    Holly Crap! Bill has to be one dumb cookie to pull a trade like this.

    Was it too much to ask to put Soriano in the rotation.

    To ship an electric arm like Soriano for an injury plagued turd Horacio Ramirez is sad!!!!!

    Worst trade ever.

  50. MMjohns195 said

    The schmidt deal i wasn’t too bummed about i mean come on paying a guy an avg of 16mil a year at age 34. you know that would have come back and bit them. i was hoping seattle would take time re-evaluate and get good solid deals done…. i’ll quit dreaming i guess

  51. Ryan said

    50- I agree but at least it made them better for 2 years. I am convinced this deal makes Seattle worse.
    Our bullpen is no longer our strength..

  52. MMjohns195 said

    I think i’m going to go look for a really high building, nice place for bavasi to jump from rather than face the angry fans

  53. Lamda said

    can we tie a rope to him and lower him the first 50 of the 200 story building? that way all the fans can get on those 50 floors and we can all beat him before he drops… just letting him fall is too easy.

  54. Ralph said

    Nice rotation at this point:

    1.
    2. Felix
    3.
    4. Washburn
    5. Ramirez/Thomsen/Baek/Woods/Feierabend

    Another failed offseason by a failed GM.

  55. Mr. Egaas said

    Now it’s looking like LaRoche for Gonzalez is falling through, and the Braves may not look to go there again. Why not, when you just stole a top reliever for a schmuck?

    I wouldn’t be upset with LaRoche for Soriano, deal Sexson for an equal or better than Ramirez somewhere else, and you save all the salary. But, c’mon Billy ball. C’mon.

  56. MMjohns195 said

    again your assuming that he has a brain which he doesn’t or clearly they wouldn’t be in the position of trading him for nothing in the first place

  57. baseballmanic said

    NO DEAL!!

    The Seattle PI is saying that the deal is not done. Oh man, this is awesome news. The only seattle anything that has reported it the times, and we all know they aren’t reliable. Anyways, once I see it on the mariners home page, then I’ll know it’s legit. Unitl then, I do not believe. No one would ever make that trade, EVER! This rumor stemmed from boston, that should have been the first thing to make you scratch your head.

    http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/baseball/archives/109437.asp

  58. Adam said

    What does the word “yet” mean to you? This is going to go through…

  59. MMjohns195 said

    ramirez will probably magically fail his physical similar to vizquel did when bavasi eventually comes to his senses, just a feeling

  60. Goose said

    I’m not believing a damn thing till I see it on the official Seattle Mariners website.

    Speaking of official, the Gonzalez-LaRoche deal is officially dead Per mlb.com

  61. Ralph said

    If you’re counting on the Seattle PI Blog as a credible source of information, you’re going to be disappointed more often than not.

    Or, you can just look down further on the page under “TSN Wire” and click on the artice called “Braves, Mariners to swap pitchers”

  62. I did make a phone call tonight but all I got was “There are three players involved in that deal the last I heard. Two big leaguers and a prospect.”

  63. baseballmanic said

    to 58. It still means no deal to me. I don’t know what you are reading into it, but it said no deal; yet. This phrase still means no deal. And to goose, I said the same thing. It is only legit once its on the mariners site. There isn’t ANYTHING about there. good im glad the gonzalez-laroche deal is dead. Maybe things will heat up again about sexson and raffy (crossing my fingers). But i think i am just doing a little more than wishinful thinking there. Yesterda i was so excited about today, we should have had hudson and laroche by now. but no, something always has to happen

  64. Knuckles said

    Three players from ATL, or 1 Mariner and 2 from ATL or…?

    By the way, this Pinocchio’s Christmas thing on ABC Family is an incredible piece of crap. Yow.

  65. Doug Taylor said

    I’m pretty angry that the Mariners would even THINK to consider such a deal as an even trade, but I’m going to wait to freak out until I hear something from Bill Bavasi. This was reported five hours ago as a done deal, and it’s gone back and forth, back and forth, with not a hint of anything official from either side.

    This could very well be true, but, in a last-ditch attempt at hope, that Bavasi has been pulling Schuerholz along the whole time, saying “You’re not getting Soriano without LaRoche,” I will wait.

  66. baseballmanic said

    its not just a blog, it was started by john hickey. Not just some joe schmo with a computer. He is a write for the pi and is in orlando right now.

  67. Willmore said

    Well, if they can get someone good out of the Braves system, I would be fine with the trade. Soriano is a career-ending injury waiting to happen. He will never have as much value as he has right now, and if the prospect is any good, why not pull the trigger ? We have Putz and a half-dozen bullpen arms in the minors.

  68. MacMariner said

    Maybe the 3rd player is Jeff Clement. That would about seal the deal I’d say.

  69. Ralph said

    Well, Jamal Strong is in the Braves’ minor league system.

  70. MMjohns195 said

    it doesn’t matter what free agent or player we get they’ll put on a seattle uni and suck its just how it works watch gil meche will now finnaly produce now that he’ll wear a cub or blue jay jersey

  71. Knuckles said

    Hmm…maybe Bavasi wrote “Pinocchio’s Christmas”.

  72. MMjohns195 said

    just read garcia to phils for Gavin Floyd and everyones Favorite PTBNL, is sea just going to sit back and do nothing as always

  73. Jerry said

    That prospect had better be really damn good.

    What a dumbass.

    Bavasi must go. This offseason is officially a bust. The M’s just gave up their best trade chip to get a lefthanded John Thomson. While they were busy pissing away a valuable player, they lost out on Jason Schmidt and all the really interesting deals are now dried up.

    Sweet.

    I just hope that Bavasi doesn’t dig himself into a deeper hole by going after Zito, resigning Meche, or committing to some other equally idiotic deal.

    The only upside to this debacle is that Ramirez is not signed to a Washburn deal.

    But this is a bad sign. What are the M’s going to do now? Sign Cliff Floyd (and totally eliminate any chance of Snelling being an everyday player?). Maybe sign Zito? Correct me if I am wrong, but, right now, all roads seem to lead to a 4th place finish next year.

  74. Willmore said

    If Bavasi could snag Elvis Andrus or even a Chad Rodgers from them, he would be a genius.

  75. baseballmanic said

    NOTHING IS OFFICIAL UNITL IT IS ANNOUNCED!!! I don’t get why everyone is freaking out. It is just a bunch of rumors, that all started in BOSTON! For every rumor that says it is a done deal, there is another that says it is not. Until the M’s announce or it is on the mariners website, it isn’t a done deal.

  76. Ralph said

    You might want to look at the official website again.

  77. Adam said

    Hickey says the deal is not done yet. What’s the holdup? Physicals and medical info. It’s not an issue of whether either team wants to go through with it – it’s an issue of whether both guys are healthy.

    In other words – Bavasi has agreed to the deal, now it is out of his hands.

    It’s going to happen.

  78. Knuckles said

    What is this obsession with Boston? The rumor I saw started on a Braves fan site (scout.com).

  79. baseballmanic said

    NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! But it still said the deal wasn’t done. (HOPE!!) 2 things stuck out to me:

    1. Seattle general manager Bill Bavasi denied that a deal had been consummated, although several sources confirmed that a trade could be imminent.

    ((Bavasi denied it, and several soucres said it COULD be imminent, which it hasn’t happened yet))

    2. Should the Mariners deal for Ramirez become official…

    ((The word SHOULD, means it has NOT happened yet))

    HOPE is alive! maybe

  80. talkbaseball said

    Officially on the M’s website this is another horrific move by Bavasi and one which will lead to the demise of Bavasi, Hargrove, Lincoln, and Armstrong. The only question is how much more damage he will do in his time here in Seattle.

  81. baseballmanic said

    78, it all spawned from boston, not scout.com. You obviously didn’t see the first rumor. It came from a boston paper or radio show.

  82. Edman said

    Adam, stop making stuff up. You want to get all worked up, fine. But until it’s official…..it’s NOTHING.

    For all you know, they could be the only two players mentioned in the deal. Maybe there are other players involved.

    I have no doubt they are talking, and that any deal must involve said players on both sides…..but that’s far from an agreement.

  83. Ralph said

    It’s also being reported at ESPN.com, TSN, and Mariners.org. It seems that there is only one conflicting report, and you just have to consider the source on that one.

  84. talkbaseball said

    What is the next move, Sexson for Rodrigo Lopez. Bavasi is more of an idiot, even more than I thought. The Hargrove – Bavasi team has to be one of the worst of all time.

  85. Edman said

    Let’s be clear WHAT is being reported. What’s being reported is the same old rumor passed around amongst all the beat writers. Because the Seattle Mariners post articles from MLB.com, doesn’t make them official.

    Yes, this might happen. I pray it doesn’t. But, it’s hardly official.

  86. Baseballistic said

    Once ESPN reports something, it’s usually official…

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2689101

    And with that, Bavasi is officially an idiot.

  87. Knuckles said

    I simply don’t understand how the purported geography of the rumor really matters. It started in Florida, and clearly didn’t come out of nowhere. Now, admittedly, this deal has NOT been finalized as of yet but there is clearly much truth to the rumor. So I’d say where it started isn’t really all that important, mythical Boston paper or website or semaphore artiste notwithstanding.

  88. Salty Dog said

    Does anyone else think the M’s blog-o-sphere is excessively negative over this move?

    I’m not saying it’s a great move, but Ramirez won’t be a free agent until 2010 (I think). Sure, he’s a middle/back of the rotation pitcher, but an affordable one under club control for the next three years.

    Not sexy, but useful to us. Until our next wave of talent (Morrow, Tillman, Butler, etc) matures, there’s no help coming from inside the system.

  89. Adam said

    Lol. Some of you don’t dare accept the reality, do you?

  90. Ralph said

    The trade doesn’t improve the rotation, and makes the bullpen worse. Are you telling me that Ramirez couldn’t have been had for a lesser player in our system? This is a one for one trade, no other prospects are involved.

    This is a trade of one of the top setup men in the league for a guy who has NRI potential. Baffling.

  91. Edman said

    Learn to read. EVERY report says the same thing, quoting the same narrow list of “interviewees”. They are ALL reformatting and repeating the same crap……it’s like whispering down a daisy-chain.

    ALL ESPN is reporting is that other people are reporting……nothing more…..and that doesn’t make it so.

    I’d say it’s highly likely…..and, it’s also just as likely that there are other names involved.

  92. MMjohns195 said

    Baffling? i’ve come to expect stuff like this, please name me the last big player seattle has signed from another team thats done better here than the previous team, excluding Raul, some please?

  93. Edman said

    While I like Soriano alot, let’s not put him in the context of one of the greatest set-up men in baseball. He’s very good, and I want him back. But, you’d think he’s the Cy Young of relievers, the way some of you go on about him. There are a dozen or more teams who have their own Soriano’s. In fact, a few have guys who throw harder.

    Yes, I want him to stay, but let’s not go overboard about his talent.

  94. Ralph said

    I also expect incompetence from this regime, but this is above and beyond.

    Bret Boone would be the most obvious answer to your question though.

  95. Adam said

    93 – I don’t think anyone is calling Soriano the next Mariano Rivera (although, if he stays healthy, he’s got the potential to be as dominant).

    The simple fact remains, we gave up way too much for way too little. PERIOD.

  96. usmc_chris said

    I dont think many people here think he is hands-down THE best reliever in the league, however he is top-of-the-barrell, and to get something as little as HoRam for him is very very depressing. I’ve been following this story since it broke on about 4 of our beloved mariner fan sites and it seems everyone has had the same reaction. It’s a horrible move and very dissapointing. Im just very saddened.

  97. Baseballistic said

    Yes, but my point with the ESPN thing is that once ESPN picks up a story, they’re usually certain it’s true.

    The M’s would’ve been better off moving Soriano to their own rotation…he would’ve been better than Ramirez…

    BTW…just had to throw this in here…the headline in one of the papers was “Soriano and Ramirez Swapped”. My friend, when he first saw it assumed that Manny Ramirez and Alfonso Soriano were swapped by the BoSox and Cubs. I’m not sure if that deal would’ve been worse than this one…and that’s saying something…

  98. usmc_chris said

    in atl there is a report that its on hold, hopefully for the good.

    http://atlanta.braves.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061206&content_id=1752752&vkey=news_atl&fext=.jsp&c_id=atl

  99. NorthwestSportsFan said

    Exactly. It’s not about losing Soriano. It’s not about getting Ramirez. It’s that it isn’t a fair trade. It’s not full-value for Soriano.

  100. Ralph said

    Because the M’s medical staff hasn’t been able to review Horacio’s medical records yet.

    Bottom line is that Bavasi pulled the trigger on a laughable trade. If it doesn’t go through, there will be others to “look forward” to.

  101. Edman said

    ESPN certain it’s true? Give me a break. They are hardly the filter of truth. And, again….READ. All they are reporting is that it’s being rumored…..and by the same sources everyone else is using. In fact, all they are doing is pulling bits and pieces from other articles.

    It’s not like they’re getting their “truth” sniffing pig to be sure it’s a good truffle or not. Not ONCE did their article say it was so…..it simply said other people were saying it’s so.

  102. Knuckles said

    Fair trade? Hell, most trades aren’t fair. This just isn’t a good move period. It doesn’t strengthen our weaknesses, and it weakens one of our strengths. Worst of all, it’s totally unnecessary.

  103. Adam said

    Edman – face reality, ok. Bavasi and Scheurholz have had ten hours to deny this rumor and put it to bed. They haven’t done it. Bavasi very easily could have told us: “There is no deal for Soriano/Ramirez.”

    We haven’t seen that. The only thing holding up the deal is medical OKs. That’s it. In other words, even if the deal doesn’t happen, your stupid-ass GM still agreed to it.

    Embrace truth. It will set you free, even if it sucks ass…

  104. MMjohns195 said

    94 if you remember boone wasn’t considered a big player he was a 20hr guy who played good defense but most thought he was on a decline, and from what i remember people weren’t really happy about it.

  105. Edman said

    From Hickey’s blog report on the PI page….

    Although a deal that would send reliever Rafael Soriano from Seattle to Atlanta in exchange for left-handed starter Horacio Ramirez was widely reported as done, both the Mariners and Braves denied that was so Wednesday.

    Would you have felt better, if it said, Bill Bavasi said, “….

  106. Ralph said

    104, That wasn’t the question. The question was to name a player who improved after coming to Seattle. Very simple.

    From the U.S.S. Bavasi:

    The Mariners are still refusing to officially confirm that a deal is in place, but they’re no longer denying it, and it’s clear that this trade is going to happen, barring an 11th hour miracle.

    And that was posted almost 2 hours after the “article” on the failed Seattle PI blog.

  107. Edman said

    Well, the USSMARINER has never been wrong before, have they?

    I know Hickey’s at the Winter meetings….not so sure anyone from the USSMARINER is. So, that’s hardly proof positive of anything, other than their normal cynical attitude.

    It very well could happen, but because someone posts it on a blog, doesn’t make it so. Goes for Hickey, as well.

    Which means…..only the suits on both sides really know the score, and everyone else is speculating.

  108. MMjohns195 said

    106 boone was not a big player at the time they signed him, a solid sign yes but not a big player

  109. Adam said

    Edman, you go on and on about reading the words, so why don’t practice what you preach:

    Although a deal that would send reliever Rafael Soriano from Seattle to Atlanta in exchange for left-handed starter Horacio Ramirez was widely reported as done, both the Mariners and Braves denied that was so Wednesday.

    Both denied the deal was DONE. Why? Well, Hickey continues:

    Apparently the two sides have to review medical records and both pitchers have to pass physical exams.

    Get it?

  110. matt said

    I am pretty sure that this deal will get done. That is probably why Atlanta nixed the Laroche-for Gonzonlez trade??? This is seriously depressing news.All I am hoping for now is that we get another decent prospect in return for Soriano.

  111. usmc_chris said

    man this is exhausting. I have sportspot, rotoworld, ussmariner, this site, and scout.com mariner page opened, trading off hitting the refresh button PRAYING that someone-somewhere breaks a story that theres either more to this or thats its not going to happen. I’ve been doing this for about 3 hours now. I just cant sleep with this feeling in my gut.

  112. Adam said

    Chris,

    Take comfort in the fact that, after the season the 2007 Mariners are going to have, you only have to endure about ten more months of Bill Bavasi.

  113. usmc_chris said

    well Adam, I have to admit, bavasi gone brings a smile to my face.

  114. Edman said

    Until it’s done, it isn’t, Adam…..you get it? Who cares if it’s down to physicals…..it’s not done. I never said it wouldn’t happen, did I? But, I’m certainly not going to act like it is. I’ve watched baseball for a long time, and KNOW that nothings done, until the papers are signed. Anything can happen to change even the most promising outcome, into a pile of unfulfilled dreams.

    Likely, sure. Done, not yet. Likely that there is more to the story than has been discussed?…..Likely.

    I certainly expect it to be done, but who knows, maybe Seattle ALSO gets a top prospect in return. Isn’t that what some of you get all excited about?

  115. Goose said

    “From the U.S.S. Bavasi:”

    USS Bavasi?

    wtf?

  116. usmc_chris said

    im going to bed, hopefully when I wake up there is some new/different news swirling around marinerland. good luck all.

  117. MMjohns195 said

    Amen to that

  118. Adam said

    Edman, I’ve been watching baseball a long time as well, and I can count on one hand the number of times a deal has been canceled because of a failed physical. It just doesn’t happen very often.

  119. Knuckles said

    Ah…but he’ll bring up Omar and that will make his point valid.

  120. StandinPat said

    Edman, again you are the owner of a mind-boggling post. A Dozen or more teams with a better set-up man than Soriano? Do me a favor and name me 3, and why you think they are better. Fact is most teams closers arent even as good as Soriano. And nevermind the going overboard about his talent, its about the value of the trade. Soriano> Ramirez = we got fleeced. Plus we still have moveable parts. Soriano plus a Brussard, Reed, Mateo, o’Flaherty, or any number of guys should have netted us someone better than Ramirez. Fact is we gave up one of the premier set-up men is baseball, who might turn out to be a heck of a starter as well, for a run of the mill #4. This is a stupid ass trade, and the fact that Sexson + Soriano was being talked about as bringing LaRoche and Hudson back in return it makes it worse.

  121. baseballmanic said

    ya i agree with 120. How the hell do you go from soriano and sexson for laroche and hudson, to just soriano for freaking ramirez. But I also agree with edman, the deal is not official until it is well, official. There has been no word confirming, or denying the trade. Only speculation. Yes, sources say the deal is all but done, but who the hell are these sources? The same ones that said we basically traded for manny? I sure hope not. Everyone is getting there panties all bunched up. Calm down, until it is announced. Then start, but all this is is unwarranted babble.

  122. Adam said

    No, it is not “only speculation”. The deal has been agreed to, but it will not be official until the medical OKs are given. This isn’t a rumor. Scheurholz and Bavasi have agreed to this deal, filled out the paperwork, and are now waiting for the physicals.

    Even if the deal falls through, a la Omar Vizquel – I’m still scared to death that the M’s are led by a man who agreed to such a trade…

  123. baseballmanic said

    I guess so. But it just doesn’t make any sense. There has to be something in it that we(the public) has no idea about. I know not alot of you(maybe no one) have confidence in our FO, but come on, no GM makes this deal, not even Bavasi. I am certain that there is something that they have no exposed yet. Maybe soriano’s arm is gonna fall off, or maybe he is still having head problems, something?? But still we should be able to get something more than ramirez. It just does not add up

  124. JohnnyBeisbol said

    Bill Bavasi… you are not a very nice man

    Signed,

    J. Beisbol

  125. Adam said

    Hey, I completely agree that this makes no sense. But alas, we have to take it at face value. Bavasi screwed up, big time.

  126. baseballmanic said

    I don’t understand the hatred only for Bavasi. He is not all powerful, everything has to get approved by the owner. Bavasi does not make all moves, and is not responsible for all moves. He pretty much does what he’s told. Is that his fault? He is doing what his bosses tell him to do, and then takes all the blame. Some of you will say that im wrong, but Bavasi can not make a trade or a sign with approval from the top.

  127. baseballmanic said

    Dont get me wrong though, im not saying he is the best gm, or even near it.

  128. Willmore said

    http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2689330

    I guess he finally realized he gave Soriano 136 million dollars.

  129. DIQ said

    Bavasi must already be on duty for his next job.

    Vice president of the Atlanta Braves.

  130. Lamda said

    ok – so bavasi is now saying we cannot go after Zito because it will stop him from doing the other things that he wants to do …. um…. WTF??? What else do we have to do? How many more crappy moves must we endure this offseason? I still fail to see the logic… how you could say “Oh No… we don’t want to trade Putz and Jones for Manny thereby making Soriano our Closer… we’d much rather trade Soriano for a crappy pitcher instead thus hurting our club further.”
    I get the feeling we’ll sign some crappy pitcher for 8 mill, a bad pitcher for 5 mill, then another bad bat for 4-5 mill and that will be our offseason.
    Here’s a good question – once we sign two more bad pitchers – WHO is our staff ace? We still want to coddle Hernandez so who starts opening day? Washburn?

  131. Baseballistic said

    Willmore,

    I thought the same thing — that and the fact that he just paid Lilly 4/40 and is about to give Meche the same thing.

    Mr. Hendry is almost as incompetent as Mr. Bavasi — maybe more.

    On the other hand, that’s not exactly a nice way to put it. Get Well Jim Hendry, for we are missing your egregious overspending.

  132. Marinerman(Grant)Always said

    Since when is Jeff sullivan a source???

  133. 3rd Watch said

    All of the initial reports are stating that the M’s got fleeced. How can Bavasi and the M’s managment feel good about this? Just speculation, but I think that other GM’s and clubs have one up on the M’s and just stick it to us.

    Its just like all the past rumors about the M’s. I’m really pissed because Soriano could have been dealt prior to his TJ injury for a major bat that would have really helped a deep playoff push. This trade does nothing but make me mad.

    I surely won’t pay to watch H-Ram pitch. Then again I he’ll most likely be on the DL.

  134. Cars said

    I think he is nice and did well job in past.

  135. Edman said

    Intial reports are meaningless. Until we know what the actual deal is, it’s hard to know if it’s fair, or foul……so lets hang on.

    As for Ramirez, it’s kinda funny in some respects. All the criticisms about his health, yet we have our own version of him in the outfield, in Snelling. So, we should give up on Chris and trade him before another injury pops up? By what I’ve read, it’s not like Ramirez is a walking medical time bomb. Nor, has he come up with phantom injuries to keep from pitching.

    I’ve seen the Washburn comparisons…..and most the complaints are not that Jerrod isn’t worth having in a rotation…but rather, how much he’s paid. So, is Ramirez that bad, at $2.2 million?

    I’ll keep my booing warmed up and ready to go…..but, until I know the actual deal, I’m not going to go strong either for, or against this trade. If Bavasi got a good prospect in the deal, and got a better option than Baek, it won’t be a horrible deal.

  136. Jerry said

    Come on guys.

    The deal is signed, sealed, and delivered.

    The M’s got absolutely hosed in this deal.

    The only thing that could sorta mitigate part of the pain of watching Bavasi run this team into the ground is the small chance that the M’s get a prospect back in this deal.

    But still, even if the M’s get a good prospect (say, Joey Devine, Jo-Jo Reyes, or Neftali Perez) it would be the difference between getting kicked in the nuts while a guy steals your girlfriend and pisses in your face and getting kicked in the nuts while a guy steals your girlfriend and pisses on your shoes. It still sucks.

    I hate this front office.

  137. Edman said

    As much as I like Soriano….he isn’t as valuable as getting a starter who can get you to the seventh inning.

    Funny, really. I come to these boards and all you hear about is how overrated relievers are. We trade one, and we’ve given up Midas’ gold.

    I don’t like the trade, but it’s not unrecoverable…..especially if Ramirez can win 12 or more games.

  138. Frozenropers said

    Unfortunately Edman, Ramirez is not a starter who can consistently get us to the 7th inning. Not to mention there is ablsolutely nothing “special” about him as a pitcher. We could get the same performance from any number of journeyman starters out there while still retaining our most valuable trade chip in Soriano.

    The trade is horrible and doesn’t gain us anything that we couldn’t have picked up off the scrap heap.

  139. Frozenropers said

    What Bavasi has done in trading Soriano for Ramirez is takien a valuable asset that’s at peak value and traded it for low value return.

    That’s the equivalent of taking your $1 million value Seattle home last year and selling it for $500,000 at the peak of the Seattle real estate market.

  140. Salty Dog said

    I’m trying to think positive about this. Endless depression is no fun.

    Ramirez has been reasonably successful for 500+ innings in the majors. If he gives us two years of solid starts, I’ll be happy.

  141. Salty Dog said

    Small sample size and probably insignificant glimmer-of-hope o’ the day, from the press release:

    He has a career Interleague record of 6-0 with a 2.95 ERA in eight starts vs. the American League.

  142. Adam said

    Salty, I have to laud your optimism. It’s sad, but at the same time admirable…

  143. Salty Dog said

    We Mariners fans need to circle the wagons right now, lest we jump off bridges. Even if it means being a little delusional. 🙂

  144. Jesse said

    How do you feel about trading Soriano, now that it comes out that the mariners recieved neither Tim Hudson, or Adam Laroche, but a injury prone mediocre #4 starter in Horacio Ramirez? I am outraged at this deal!!!!!!!!!!!!! Soriano for Horacio Ramirez….what was Bill Bavasi thinking?!!!!!!!!!!!!

  145. Ben said

    Jason, you might want to update the left hand side of the page. Meche isn’t going to the Cubbies. It’s to the Royals for 5 years for 55 million…

    That is the only thing that remotely cheers me up. There are people dumber than Bavasi.

  146. Salty Dog said

    I dunno, a rotation of

    Felix
    Washburn
    Ramirez
    Feierabend

    … would be pretty good. I know it’s unlikely Old Man Hargrove will go with Feierabend, but he’s the best choice vs Baek and Woods in terms of upside. Adding him to Washburn and Ramirez, we’d have three lefties, which is useful in Safeco.

  147. Jerry said

    “I dunno, a rotation of
    Felix
    Washburn
    Ramirez
    Feierabend
    … would be pretty good.”

    No, it wouldn’t.

    It would be the opposite of pretty good. It would be pretty shitty.

    That is a 90-loss rotation.

    Terrible.

    Worst in the AL West by a very large margin.

  148. baseballmanic said

    I just listend to kjr and they on a guy from atlanta talking about the trade. He said everyone was thrilled to get soriano, but was a little mad to see ramirez go. He said that when healthy, this guy is a legit no. 2 starter, and when not so good he is a no. 3. he said that they(the media and fans) would rather the team trade hudson than ramirez. They really liked what this kid can bring, said he is a better pitcher than hudson. maybe he was B.S.ing, but sounded truthful. But he is good LHP with minimal pay. Pay wise, and pitching ability wise, this guy is a huge bargain, but i still don’t know if i like him for soriano. we shall see come next year. Maybe a little light at the end??

  149. Goose said

    I think the guy from atlanta is full of shit.

  150. baseballmanic said

    ya, but the M’s have spent NO money this offseason. They said they were going to raise it to 95-99 million. There are rumors everywhere saying that the M’s want zito, bad. Probably just rumors. So before you rip this thread to pieces, just think about what it might look it.

    zito
    hernandez
    ramirez
    washburn
    wood/baek/whocares

    Maybe they are saving all there money to through a ridiculous contract at zito. Now work with me here, IF we got zito, considering everything else that has happened so far, would you think that it was a successful offseason?? Plus we got guillen. And things are still in the works

  151. Frozenropers said

    #148: The guy on the radio “from” Atlanta was an M’s front office marketing plant. Complete BS. Atlanta fans are dancing in the streets and bowing down to little JS Buddha statues.

  152. misterjonez said

    Jason, regarding post #62, have you heard anything as to who that prospect/minor-leaguer might be? This trade is making me more and more upset as time goes by. Anything you’ve got would be good at this point. Even if it’s that we ended up giving up another guy, I’d like to know one way or the other just so I can stop thinking about it.

  153. Frozenropers said

    #150: No because throwing ridiculous money at Zito isn’t smart either.

  154. Jerry said

    RE #150

    NO. No no no.

    That is exactly what the M’s need to avoid doing.

    I am keeping my fingers crossed that the team avoids long-term contracts.

    That way, after the whole front office and Grover are fired, a new GM can come in and fix this team in a year or two, instead of needing years to dig out of a massive hole.

    Barry Zito isn’t worth what he will get paid. Not even close.

    This offeason is effectively over. There are very few good options left. I hope that the M’s just give up, have a fire sale, and stock up young talent.

    This team is a train wreck.

    Bill Bavasi had one last season to show his skill as a GM. He failed miserably. His time is up.

    THIS CLUB IS FUCKED

  155. Salty Dog said

    Dude, Jerry, back away from that ledge. 🙂

    But I agree with you that we should avoid long term deals from here on out. A one year contract to Thomson and a one year contract to a RH platoonmate for Broussard would leave us in reasonably good payroll shape (relatively speaking) next year if we have a new GM.

    Really, though, it reinforces the idea that you have to keep your farm system stocked with young pitching. We’re paying the price for failing to do so.

  156. Lamda said

    with the apparent lack of options available – i’m almost scared to see what the M’s do next 😦

    I would sign Zito if I were them – at this point even for 20mill a season but he doesn’t seem to have any interest in coming here so that’s exactly what we’d have to do – sign him to an absurd contract to get him here.

    I just got nothing left Jason.. what about you?

  157. Adam said

    Bavasi got played…

  158. Adam said

    Trade Ichiro to LAD for Penny, Elbert, and Andy LaRoche.
    Trade Beltre to LAAofA for Lackey (LAA pays all of Beltre’s salary)
    Trade Sexson to BAL for Hayden Penn
    Trade Reed and Penn to FLA for Mike Jacobs
    Trade Broussard to PITT for Solomon Torres
    Sign Kenny Lofton to a 2/$14 million deal
    Sign Julio Zuleta to a two-year deal

    Here’s the team:

    Lofton
    Lopez
    Ibanez
    Guillen
    Jacobs
    Johjima
    Snelling
    LaRoche
    Betancourt

    Rivera
    Bloomquist
    Zuleta
    Morse
    Other

    Felix
    Lackey
    Washburn
    Penny
    HoRam

    Mateo
    O’Flaherty
    Huber
    Sherril
    Torres
    Putz

    The plan is to deal both Washburn and Lofton after the season, when their contracts will be rather reasonable. Elbert will take Wash’s place, and Adam Jones will be ready to take over for Lofton. Guillen will be gone as well.

    The rotation and bullpen (especially if Lowe comes back) will be very good in 2008. Further, although the lineup will take a beating in 2007, we will have the money to pursue Vernon Wells and put him in RF.

    Clement may be ready by 2008, making Ibanez expendable as our DH.

    Oh, and I’d hire Joe Girardi to manage the team in 2008.

    I am sure we’d finish close to last in 2007. That’s ok, since we are going to finish last anyway. At least we’d be a contending team in 2008, in my opinion, with a very good young infield (if Jacobs isn’t great, we could always upgrade), and an OF of Snelling, Jones, and Wells.

    That’s my plan for the rest of the offseason.

  159. Adam said

    And yes, I know it won’t happen…

  160. Edman said

    I’m just wondering. So many are critical of this trade….how many have actually seen Ramirez pitch? I sure haven’t. How do you know what he’s capable of, when he’s pitching at 100%

    I’m not saying this trade is good, but there is more to look at than stats alone.

  161. Lamda said

    well look at it this way Edman – the way we are laughing at KC fans for signing Meche to 11mill/year is the same way the Braves fans are laughing at us for trading Soriano for Ramirez.

  162. drrrew said

    By chance I happened to see him pitch twice on TBS last year (just a couple of innings, didn’t see the entire game) because my grandmother watches all of the Braves’ games and I had stopped by to see her.

    He struck me as remarkably unremarkable. He could have been any number of faceless middling left handed pitchers floating around.

    Again, we’re talking 5 inning tops that I saw but not once did it ever occur to me that he could conceivably be a top tier starting pitcher. He appeared exceedingly mediocre.

  163. Gookie said

    why in the hell does bavasi think that sean white is the answer to all our question!!!

    soriano should of brought up 2 blue chippers , not just a pitcher that ”might” be good enough to pitch if healthy.

    zito wont come here for the same reason schmidt and lilly wouldnt… cause the mariners arent competetive/ wont be this year.

  164. Lamda said

    I think Bavasi bought into the fantasyland atmosphere of Disneyworld when he was down there. I really have no idea what his plan for the offseason is. I liked the Guillen deal but this Soriano one seems like an incredible waste. He said this Immediately improves our team – again, what fantasy world does he live in? Is it because he feels we had 3 rotation spots open so thereby filling one with anybody makes us better???
    And with all the good arms gone – what do we do now? With their reluctance to move certain people I don’t see how we could pry any decent pitcher away from a club in a trade – we’ll be stuck with middle to end of the rotation guys filling out our entire rotation. About all I can hope for at this moment is that he just signs guys to 1 year deal pitching wise so we don’t get handcuffed with any of the bad arms left for more than that.

  165. The Seattle Mariners would be a better team right now with Raffy and without Ramirez. If you can honestly sit back and say that, the trade is absurd.

    And this isn’t one of those instances where Howie or Chuck were hanging all over Bavasi and swaying him one way or the other. Like Spiezio, Aurilia and Washburn, this move is so asinine I can’t even think of the right set of words to describe it.

    The Mariners now have three No. 4 starters and a No. 5, presuming Thomson actually signs, though most signs point to that being iffy at this point.

    The ONLY way Bavasi can do anything to make hay this winter is to gut the farm, which is a tragedy.

    I can see it now – Adam Jones, Ryan Feierabend and Jeff Clement for Jason Jennings. Yuck.

  166. Ralph said

    This has got to be the worst non-deadline deal that I can remember. With the cast of characters that we have now vying for slots in the starting lineup, our bullpen will need to be stronger than ever. So much for that. With Lowe already gone, I really don’t see the sense in trading Soriano for anything less than an impact player.

    And if Bavasi’s past trade history is any indication, Ramirez will be DFA or traded in 6 months to a year anyway.

  167. Speaking of Lowe, the Mariners aren’t talking about it at all, as it’s actually against league rules as well as Federal Law to do so publicly in any manner, but I have heard his surgery went very well and that multiple doctors feel really good about his return to baseball.

    One doctor apparently thinks 5-6 months is all Lowe will need to recover and get back to throwing off a mound, and he could return to live games by June.

    The worry, however, is how effective can he be, what kind of velocity might he have and how durable is his elbow going to be after such a procedure.

  168. Ralph said

    Well, that’s the best news that I’ve heard in the last 24-48 hours.

  169. Lamda said

    hey jason – are there even any #2 type guys that we could try to trade for off some team? Any that come to mind?

  170. No. Teams aren’t trading pitching unless they have to, like guys with huge contracts (Hudson), or if they are getting a huge haul in return (Brad Penny).

    I’m just not inclined, personally, to trade Adam Jones unless it’s for a proven big bat (Manny), or a frontline arm.

    I would not deal Jones for Jennings, Hudson, or even Penny. I wouldn’t even trade him for Josh Johnson, and I like Johnson more than Olsen or Willis. If I’m the GM of the Mariners, I’m looking ahead two years and can’t give up a surefire regular (maybe an all-star, maytbe not, but certainly a regular, barring major injuries) in center or right field for anything less than a long-term solution to fill a hole on roster for at least 3 years.

    This club is better off trading away the vets that make big cash (Sexson, Washburn, and maybe even Ichiro, but that will never happen), and wait for the Feierabend, Morrow, Jones, Clement class to graduate to the big leagues and THEN make a major deal (trade OR Free agency) to get the vets as the icing on the cake.

    The suits refuse to work that way, because it’s all about filling their yards with gold statues of themselves and eating caviar off diamond-laced dishes with sterling silver utensils.

    But it’s the RIGHT thing to do, and would actually make them more cash in the end, due to the payroll expenses dropping considerably.

    I could put together a team in 2008 that could very well win 80-85 games without spending more than 60 million bucks. And there wouldn’t be any outlandish unrealistic trades or free-agent signings involved. All legit, more-than-doable deals, and wise use of the farm system.

  171. Ralph said

    This is like Houston trading us Dan Wheeler for Joel Pineiro.

    And I’m still waiting for that first TOR starter that Safeco Field was supposed to lure by the dozens. Aces were reported to be fistfighting each other for the right to pitch here. We can’t even lure the hometown boys.

  172. 3/47 isn’t luring, it’s giving a no. 3 starter ace money. There’s only ONE pitcher in all of baseball worth anywhere near that kind of cash, and his name is Cy Young, er, Johan Santana.

    After that, it makes so little sense to give out that dough. I’m glad the Mariners did not sign Schmidt, and the Dodgers will probably wish they hadn’t inked him by the end of ST in 07.

    Maybe the M’s aren’t nearly as good without Schmidt in 2007, but they will be better in 2009 and 2010 because he isn’t around eating up 16+ million per season at age 36 and 37.

  173. Adam said

    This club is better off trading away the vets that make big cash (Sexson, Washburn, and maybe even Ichiro, but that will never happen)

    Finally, someone agrees with me – I’m ALL for dealing Ichiro, moreso than Jason.

  174. I’m all for it, too, but since it’ll never happen, it’s hard to push for it.

  175. Knuckles said

    Jason: Keep my seat warm at Cheney, will ya? I won’t be using mine at Safeco any longer.

  176. You betcha.

    Almost 300 games attended by yours truly since the middle of the 2003 season at Cheney. I’ve been to Safeco five times in that span.

  177. Orlandu said

    Good news about Mark Lowe. It makes me feel a little bit better about this stupid trade.

  178. Lowe is still unlikely to ever be good again – if he pitches, but we can hope. He was awfully nasty last season. I mean, that was blue-chip closer stuff, the best I have ever seen from an M’s prospect not named Felix.

  179. Vince said

    So realistically what can we expect the rest of this off season in your opinion Jason?

    Anything?

    im beyond being open jawed and clueless. Im trying to proceed as you have to in life when time get tough…..

  180. Nothing earth-shattering, but I would have said that a month ago, too.

    All the M’s really have is the farm and money to deal from.

  181. J said

    I thought Omar Falcon was a six-year FA anyway?

    I’m probably going to be spending more time in Tacoma too, but that’s mostly because I have a reliable car now.

  182. Vince said

    well that is what im saying. I have come to realize earth penetrating isnt even gonna happen. so im tryin to get a sense of best case most likely scenario.

    its just asking you is having “a line out there” so i can try to see where we are standing. GOD HES GETTIN TO ME!!

  183. JAC biggest fan said

    Hey Jason,
    Do you have anything on Sean White. I doubt he will even make the team, but do you have anything on. The last two days have been perplexing to say the least. I had high hopes for this offseason, but it seems like we may have taken a step back, if that’s even possible. Also, do you know about anything else that we might be in store for. The roster can’t possibly be set, there is no way this is what we are taking to spring training. (hopefully)

  184. JAC biggest fan said

    Also, I thought bavasi said they were going to raise to payroll to 95+ million. Aren’t we at about 70 right now? What the heck is going on. Please fill me in on our payroll info. Also are we just saving it all for zito?

  185. JAC biggest fan said

    I know you don’t really like to bac to back posts, or back to back to back, but I was wondering about the draft pick and Meche. Do we get any draft pick from the royals? I know they are protected because they pick in the top 15. So do we just get a sandwich pick in the 1st round?? I hope we get something.

  186. Edman said

    Not sure if this will help the sting any, but I got this quote from the AP article on ESPN about the trade:

    “They got a good starter, we think, in Horacio,” Braves manager Bobby Cox said, adding that Atlanta pitching coach Roger McDowell thinks Ramirez can win 15-20 games. “He’s sincere about that. Horacio has always had those capabilities. Unfortunately, last year, he had the hamstring and finger problems. But he’s fine, healthy and should pitch great.”

    When Seattle was looking for a pitching coach, many here recommended McDowell. I know some of you will call it all lies, but you’re gonna believe what you want to believe.

    And to answer the Meche compensation question…..Seattle gets a sandwich pick.

  187. We don’t get any picks from the Royals, but we do get a supplemental pick between rounds 1 and 2. It’s a pretty good pick, so that’s cool.

    Re: Payroll

    They have about 77-80 spent, if you include Putz’s arby deal and the new guys. There’s money to be spent, for sure, but if there isn’t anyone to spend it on, than oh well.

    Re: White

    He’s not even interesting. He’s got a fastball with sinking action that tops out at about 91, but sits 87-89 typically. He used to be 93ish. He does induce a decent amount of ground balls but he allowed a .300 BAA last year and his K/9 was just 6.42.

    I really don’t see the need for a rule 5’er like that. He’s not much help, at least not in the rotation, and if you were going to use him in the pen, why not use Sean Green instead? Or Fruto? Or Kahn? or James?

  188. Re: McDowell

    I had the chance to sit down with McDowell in ’05 when he was at Vegas in the PCL. What an awesome dude.

    But lemme tell ya, if he did say that, he means it. He doesn’t spin ANYTHING, not a thing. When he tells a pitcher he did well, he did well in McDowell’s eyes. If not, he’ll tell him he had a tough game and needs to work on this and that. He was a great, great interview (I wanted his opinion on Surgically Impaired Farm System Part 1 and Part 2) and he was just fantastic.

    Of course, most of the hour was spent talking about the old days with Doc and Darryl and Davey Johnson.

  189. Edman said

    Jason, according to the articles I’ve read, they took a chance on White because Brad Holman recommended him after seeing his fastball gain velocity in the AFL. From all I’ve read regarding Holman, he’s a pretty solid pitching coach.

    And, I’d agree on McDowell. I’m going on your past observations. I doubt Bobby Cox would misquote him, just to gloss up a trade when he doesn’t need to. He’s got Soriano now, so all he needs to do is make no comment, and nobody would care.

    I really don’t know what to expect from Ramirez. In a few months, we’ll know. I would be curious to know why other teams didn’t make offers for Soriano, knowing he was available….and what the Braves were offering. There must be concern of some kind out there.

    Regardless, as much as I hate to see him go, if there is one area Seattle can afford to make a mistake in trading, it’s relief pitching. It’s their one strong minor league suit.

  190. Goose said

    Regarding the site breaking record(woot! btw), LL broke a record of their own for most unique hits in one day IIRC.

    So it seems the old adage is true. Misery loves company.

  191. USSMariner experienced similar results, too.

    The M’s blogosphere is second to none. I believe that.

  192. Marinerman(Grant)Always said

    Brad Holman…speaking of getting hit in the head…

  193. Seahawk2k7 said

    Wrong Holman. That would be Brian Holman I think you are referring to?

    Jason, what did you think of the updated article from Geoff Baker, on his final thoughts of the winter meetings?

    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2003453703_webwintermeet03.html

    Do you think he put things in perspective as far as not over-reacting in early December to what’s going to happen? I know the nature of the blog/web/message board is to instantly demand the head of Bavasi on a lance, but, isn’t it a better idea to just wait and see how this thing plays out?

    And, is Ramirez really THAT bad? He’s shown flashes, I thought. He shut down the Yanks at Yankee Stadium this summer, and he pitched ok vs. Toronto and Baltimore in interleague play. I can’t believe the “crap with feet” assessment that people have laid at this kid. Your saber-heads are quick to point out his k-ratio or VORP or whatever, but sometimes people have to remember these are human beings, and then can in fact turn a corner when they least expect it. Go back and look at how USS Mariner trashed the Ibanez signing and how every predictor indicated he was due for a huge drop, yet last year where would the M’s have been without him? You just never know.

    And, isn’t Soriano a gamble? Wasn’t there some mysterious arm ailments that took a while to assess last year? Further, isn’t it always the nature of the fan to hold their own players in much higher esteem in regards to trade value vs. the people that actually make these decisions for a living?

    Funny, all the trades that Bavasi has made in Seattle, they all were met with relatively positive reactions at the time they were made, yet they haven’t exactly worked out. Might be a bit ironic if this one actually works out?!?

    I guess I’m just saying that I’m not ready to throw in the towel on Pearl Harbor day!

  194. StandinPat said

    Seahawk, its not that Ramirez is horrible, cause he’s not, and its not that Soriano isnt a health risk, he is. Its that Ramirez is a 4 or 5 starter with a history of injuries, and someone we should have been able to get for alot less. As far as Soriano’s health, yeah he’s a risk, but anymore than Ramirez? Soriano has way better stuff than Ramirez, and if they made him a starter would outperform Ramirez, while still having about the same chance of pitching 200 innings, not real good. The other part of this is the Sexson + Soriano for Hudson and LaRoche talks. That would have been a dynamite trade. But even Soriano plus a Reed or Brussard or someone should bring you a solid #2 or #3 with some upside. The M’s have only a couple of holes, but some quality expendable pieces. Trading them off one by one doesnt maximize your return. Bunch two or three of those guys together a grab yourself someone who will make the team better.

  195. Edman said

    Lets be honest about something….few of us know what Ramirez is capable of. None of us are scouts. You can’t simply look at some stats, especially with such a small sample size, and know if he’s a 3, 4 or 5 starter.

    I do know he’s not likely to ever be a 1 starter, and that 2 is a stretch.

    On paper, it’s a bad trade. Obviously, Seattle’s scouts saw something they liked. You can disagree with them, if you wish. But, they weren’t looking at stats, they were looking at potential. And, as you all should know, just because someone has great stats, doesn’t mean they’re a great fit.

    I probably wouldn’t have done the deal. But, I don’t know ALL the information Bavasi was working with…..and, neither do ANY of you.

  196. Edman said

    And, I REALLY wish some of you would stop fantasizing about trade possibilities that are pure speculation. To speak of trades for possible #2 pitchers is crap. In case you missed it, teams are moving good pitching…..ESPECIALLY now, when you see a Gil Meche making $11 million a year. Suddenly, replacing what you’ve got, is much more expensive.

  197. Edman said

    Ooops….aren’t moving….sorry

  198. StandinPat said

    521 innings is a small sample size? If you say so edman. You know what, i’m not a scout, but I will give you $100 if you can find one that says Ramirez has better stuff, and better control than Soriano. You chastize people for speculating about players performances, and trade scenarios when they arent scouts or Gm, and its kinda ironic that you prob do it more than anyone here. If people that dedicate their lives to this kind of stuff, people like Jason here and the guys at USSMariner and Lookoutlanding, plus the bulk of the posters all think its a horrible deal and that Soriano has way more value than Ramirez, what exactly makes you think that everyone else is wrong?

  199. Seahawk2k7 said

    “Sexson + Soriano for Hudson and LaRoche talks.”

    Couldn’t agree more, that would have been a nice trade for the M’s. But do you really think the Braves actually wanted to do that? Sure it was rumored for one evening around here, but how do we know it was ever really an option? I heard Jayson Stark on ESPN radio the morning after that story broke around here and he basically laughed off the whole scenario, so while some bloggers might claim they heard it was on the table, we don’t really know if it was ever serious, at all.

    I don’t know, maybe it’s because Soriano grew up in the M’s system and we’ve watched him do some dynamite things as a reliever, and we are all in love with “stuff” like Soriano’s, but I think we’ve all put too high a value on what he could realistically fetch, today, on the open market.

    I agree with Edman. We don’t know all the information that Bavasi and company were working with, and we have no idea how it’s going to pan out. We can’t say we could have got Ramirez for a lot less, because we don’t know how teams truly value these kinds of players. Bavasi and company wouldn’t have agreed to this deal if they didn’t both believe in what they were getting back, and, maybe they doubted more than they’ll ever admit on Soriano.

    I think a lot of teams have shown that hard-throwing relievers aren’t all that difficult to find, and more times than not you can get them out of your own organization. Who knew Mark Lowe was going to be so dominating last year? Who knew Putz was going to be one of the top closers in the AL, or the same goes with Papelbon in Boston?? And who knew Adam Wainright would come out of nowhere to dominate in the postseason, in fact not getting scored on at ALL in the entire postseason this year? It just seems like it’s easier to find a hard-throwing guy with a couple of plus pitches in the late innings, like Soriano, vs. finding a legit starter than can potentially deliver 200 IP and an ERA in the low-4’s, something that Ramirez has accomplished already in his career.

  200. StandinPat said

    Hard throwing relievers arent that hard to find, ones as dominant as Soriano has been are. Everyteam has several young guys with ‘live’ arms, that doesnt mean any of them will every be able to get a MLB hitter out. Soriano walked one every three innings he pitched, while striking out more than one an inning, stranded alot of inherited baserunners, and held opponents to a .204 baa, and a .611 ops. Those are ridiculous numbers. Soriano isnt simply just a good reliever, he is an elite reliever.

    As far as the trade rumors go, yes many of them are just that. But the Braves did come very close to trading Laroche to Pitt for mike Gonzalez, so its not unfathomable that they would part with this young 1b for a dominating reliever.

  201. Marinerman(Grant)Always said

    no,m it was brad…Brian tore his shoulder to bits

  202. re: 196

    Except if yer the Dodgers who are looking to move Penny and in talks with the Rangers they didn’t ask for the world and they simply asked Baltimore for Hayden Penn and Nolan Reimold.

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