Nageotte yo-yo’d, Livingston Called Up
Posted by Jason A. Churchill on April 23, 2006
The title says it all, and what sucks is Nageotte didn't know this was coming.
Neither did Bobby, who is apparently going to start games for the Mariners in the next few weeks and as early as tomorrow versus Chicago.
I'll write a new post on what to expect from Livingston, but that'll come later.
You heard it here first… The Doctor gets the house call.
Cesar Jimenez was promoted to Tacoma to take Livingston's spot on the roster, though it may be in a relief role.
prospectinsider.wordpress.com 
J said
Hate to see the ‘spects jerked around, but it’s better than letting things stagnate I guess.
Any word on someone moving into SA?
B-Liv and Cesar were both scheduled to start tomorrow.
JasonAChurchill said
I believe a spot start until they can re-arrange.
U.S.S. Mariner » Roster Shuffling - Seattle Mariners and general baseball discussion said
[…] According to Jason Churchill, Bobby Livingston will be coming up from Tacoma to take the empty roster spot. Churchill is also speculating that Livingston will join the M’s rotation shortly with rumors of a Joel Pineiro trade in the works. […]
2quarters said
Hey, at least this will keep me interested. I planned to not watch a game this entire week. Can’t take much more of this crap.
Willmore said
I didn’t see the wisdom of Nageotte being called up. It’s like calling up Morse last year; what makes them think that a person not performing well in the minors will suddenly break out in the majors ? Walking 9 in 16.1 innings is not a good indication of progress. Neither is the 4.4 K/9. Let Nageotte get into a groove before calling him up, it’s only a matter of time.
Now, since he’s back in Tacoma and B-Liv is in Seattle, it makes more sense, but still this jerking is not warranted.
JasonAChurchill said
He was up to cover an inning or two so the pen didn’t have to cover four innings again.
Nageotte gave them another arm.
And he did about as well as Mateo or Woods would have, so why does anyone have this huge beef with it?
Willmore said
In the grand scheme of things, it’s no big deal. However, with the team doing this bad, it’s easy to criticise every move that does nothing positive.
JasonAChurchill said
Those who wish to micro-criticize everything are not welcome here.
Not you, Willmore. But the ones who want to bitch about every little thing and be a negative force.
Rain Delay » As reported earlier.. said
[…] It will be Bobby Livingston that will be called up according to Jason Churchill over at Prospect Insider. Apparently niether guy saw this coming, if you look over the comments, you can see that Nags was just called up to eat a few innings today. Just to give the pen a day off, basically. […]
Jerry said
RE #6 and #8,
I don’t see this as a micro-criticism.
Many people don’t see the wisdom in bringing up a guy for one short stint, then sending him down.
In fact, I think that it is possible that this was a knee-jerk thing: “hey, lets bring up Nageotte, and see how he does….wow, that didn’t go well…..send him back!” To me, this type of thing is scary. It shows that the club just doesn’t understand how to manage a roster.
They take a guy who is trying to transition back to starting, throw him out of his routine, put him in a situation that will ruin his confidence, then shoot him back to AAA.
Maybe there is some hidden logic to all this that I am missing. Maybe there is some big trade that is near completion (not likely, but possible). But from my POV, this just reeks of poor management.
If they needed a guy to cover one inning, why not call up Fruto? Why not call up Green? Why not call up Cortez? All three of the latter are already settled into bullpen roles, and all three have pitched better in AAA than Nageotte. From a performance standpoint, and from a player management standpoint, both of these guys make more sense than Nageotte.
Clint is a guy who is one of our top pitching prospects in an organization thin on pitching. Why mess with his development for a stupid move like this.
dixarone said
Fruto – Green – Cortez…have any of these guys tasted the bigs before? Could it have something to do with option clocks, etc. ? Nags has been up before, knows the drill, and although it seems he may not have been “included” in the inner reasonings for this move, one would assume neither a tremendous outing nor a poor one is going to particularly effect him long-term one way or another.
Willmore said
When do we find out how this affects the starters ?
Will Felix be pushed back a game ?
slim said
Fruto and Cortez have already been optioned once this year (the first of 3 option years for both), so they can be called up and down as much as needed without using up options. Service time isn’t really an issue, since we’re likely only dealing with a few days at a time and a player needs to accumulate close to 120 days before you have to worry about things like Super Two status years down the road. Its not an issue at all really.
Green is 26 and has not used an option year yet, but its really a non-issue with him because he’d be 29 by the time he did conceivably run out of options, and no one really cares if they have to DFA a 29 year old reliever.
I’d rather see Harris, Green or Fruto in the pen than Nageotte and Livingston. Nags needs more time to get into a groove and B-Liv has all of 4 AAA starts under his belt. These guys need to be developed as consistent starters.
marc w. said
I really think the whole bring-a-guy-up-for-one-game-as-needed move isn’t that bad. Yes, it looks like a schizophrenci sort of move, and there’s always a temptation to personalize it: ‘so Nageotte makes a bad pitch and gets demoted?’
But this isn’t all that uncommon. Remember George Sherrill’s great near-escape from a bases-loaded situation versus NY last year? Got demoted that night. All teams need an extra arm from time to time, and it’s not that they ‘don’t have a plan’ – they just need an arm!
This is what the minors are for. Yes, it would suck to burn through the options on a guy needlessly, but I think the M’s always knew Nags would be up at some point this year. If you cash in that option chip a few months earlier than expected, it’s not that bad a deal. If they burned an option on, I dunno, Stephen Kahn, then that’s a problem.
I’m willing to give ’em the benefit of the doubt on this one, and I’m *really* curious to see how B-Liv is used.
Willmore said
“B-Liv has all of 4 AAA starts under his belt.”
Actually, he started 10 games last year.
marc w. said
Slim,
Agreed – B-Liv needs work as a starter. That, plus the plethora of lefthanded options in the bullpen make me wonder if they aren’t going to try and give him a start at some point. That would also make the Nags move easier to understand – bring up a righty to bail out the bullpen, then get the lefty up to actually start a game.
Willmore said
I would be in favor of moving Meche to the bullpen and giving his spot to B-Liv. Meche has very little value right now, and he will needsome good starts to get more value – he can’t get it. Some teams see him as a reliever, so why not endulge them and see what he can do there. Perhaps we can improve his value in the eyes of those teams.
slobarod said
So…do we have any confirmation on the B-Liv call up. I smell something. JAC what do you know about Clement not playing last night?
eknpdx said
Clement can’t be traded yet, if that is what your question was hinting towards. If not, I think his elbow was sore.
Willmore, the most convincing argument I’ve heard about Meche stying in the starting role is that his trade value (whatever that might be) goes rock bottom once you move him out of the rotation.
Is it possible Livingston is part of a trade?
Jason, could you comment on how long it takes for a trade to be processed? That would be from when two teams finalize an agreement and send it to MLB for approval.
slobarod said
Why can’t he be traded? I thought that once a pick was made the draft pick can be traded. Is there some sort of time frame I am unaware of?
eknpdx said
IIRC, he has to be on the roster for one year, or something like that. If Clement is going to be traded, it will be later this year, or a PTBNL.
slobarod said
Interesting. I never knew about that rule. I still can’t find any info on it. Do you remember where you saw it? Thanks.
slobarod said
Nevermind. I see it now. Thanks.
marinerswinws said
Hey Jason does Bobby Livingston get the start tonite.
Willmore said
By the way, Jason, just so you know, the photo of Livingston on the left doesn’t show up well on Firefox. It’s fine on IE though.
JasonAChurchill said
Clement just has a sore elbow and isn’t playing everyday.
slobarod said
2 Games. That is the number of times that B-Liv has been used in relief in his entire professional career.
JasonAChurchill said
Yeah, so he is ultimately going to be used as a starter. And his stuff strongly suggests he wouldn’t do so well in relief.
JasonAChurchill said
Clement isn’t getting traded and nobody has mentioned Bobby in a deal to me, either.
He doesn’t carry much value because he’s a soft-tossing southpaw.
And unlike detectovision claims, Bobby is a soft tosser. He sits 83-85.
JasonAChurchill said
Apparently, the Mariners want to start Bobby but until they have a spot for him they are claiming to “need someone who can get through 3 or 4 innings in relief.
“We don’t have any trades on the table at the moment and nobody is going on the DL anytime in the next few days, unless something happens tonight or tomorrow.”
Dr. D said
Thanks for the report on Livingston/Pineiro, Jason.
===================
Of course Livingston’s velocity is way minus. He clocks as low as 83, though 85-87 is not abnormal for him.
But you have to know what Shandler means with the sabermetric term “soft-tosser” — it’s a guy with very low K rates, a guy with *both* minus velocity *and* minus stuff, who throws marshmallows, gets no strikeouts, and relies on picking, nibbling, and tricking people. Guardado is a soft-tosser.
Barry Zito, even when he’s clocking 86-87 mph, is not a soft-tosser because his overall arsenal has bite, he gets K’s, and is hardly throwing marshmallows up there.
Livingston’s hook is a Zito-caliber weapon, his change is often Moyer-esque, and he can attack hitters as opposed to hiding from them.
=======================
First remark we made at D-O-V is that Livingston cannot afford to center a fastball at any time — not even once per game. From the June 16 2005 scouting report:
++ 2nd pitch of the game, IIRC, Livingston “challenged” the Beavers’ leadoff hitter with a FB out and over the plate.
Words do not do justice to the ease with which the batter ripped the meatball into the left-center gap. I don’t think I’ve ever in my life seen a batter so visibly sit there and think, “oh, here’s a nice fastball,” and just time it perfectly, powdering it into the power alley.
Five separate times in the first 2.1 innings, Livingston left his arrow-straight 88 heater over the plate, and 5-for-5 the Beaver hitters loaded up and LAUNCHED the pitch into the gaps. (One of them, Jamal Strong scooted after and snagged before it hit the ground.)
This much we can tell you. Bobby Livingston can’t afford to throw centered fastballs.++
No matter how good Livvy’s hook and change are, his fastball is so minus that it limits his upside. If he becomes a Grade A starter despite the 84-87 fastball, he’ll be one of the first 84-87 lefties to star, ever.
But he can become a better version of John Halama, and Halama at his best was an average-solid MLB starter.
Cheers,
Jeff
Dr. D said
And, of course, when we called his FB 87-89 on June 16, we were just guessing from the stands. It’s definitely minus.
It will be interesting what the Safeco gun has him at — I’m guessing it will show him at 84-87.
A slower gun would read differently, but the scale that M’s fans are used to (Joel, Washburn, etc) is the Safeco gun. On that gun I’ll be kind of surprised if Livingston doesn’t show Moyer 1999 velocity.
Willmore said
Guardado has a higher K/9 than Zito and has post 9 and 10 K/9 rates. Zito has been as low as 5.67.
dnc said
Yeah, I don’t get the “Guardado is a soft tosser” comment either. Unless, of course, you’re just talking about this year. 🙂
Dr. D said
Of course I’m talking about this year.
dnc said
In that case, sad but true.
Willmore said
eh. ok.
JasonAChurchill said
I wish Bobby’c CB was Zito-esque.
But it’s not.